Union vs CSA Guerrilla

Earlier in the thread (in relation to countering supportive partisan civilians) there was mention of 'Block Houses'. Can anyone expand further on this? Were these block houses used as in the British fashion during the South African Boer War for instance?
 
The wooden structures built to protect soldiers from attack? Only reference to a block house that I have come across. Not familiar with Crinean War.
 
Earlier in the thread (in relation to countering supportive partisan civilians) there was mention of 'Block Houses'. Can anyone expand further on this? Were these block houses used as in the British fashion during the South African Boer War for instance?
I asked this question to some folks on the board here from Missouri and they said no. It was not used that way in East TN either. Just isolated forts. Not as efficient in bringing in bitter enders like De Wet, De la Rey and Botha.
 
Earlier in the thread (in relation to countering supportive partisan civilians) there was mention of 'Block Houses'. Can anyone expand further on this? Were these block houses used as in the British fashion during the South African Boer War for instance?
"Block houses" specifically refers to small fortified positions that protected critical positions especially rail road bridges. Block houses could repel groups of guerrillas and were imperious to small arms fire . They could be overcome by artillery.
Leftyhunter
 
Earlier in the thread (in relation to countering supportive partisan civilians) there was mention of 'Block Houses'. Can anyone expand further on this? Were these block houses used as in the British fashion during the South African Boer War for instance?
Neither side in the ACW had "Concentration Camps" or "Protected Villages, where civilians were hearded in prison like or new communities guarded by troops or militias.
There was de facto population removal on both sides where civilians perceived as hostile had to move from a given location as in the Union order #11 in Missouri.
However nothing like the British Concentration Camps that the British had in the Boer War.
Colonel La Rue Harrison commander of the 1st Arkansas Union Cavalry did establish armed communes of Unionist families to ward off Confederate guerrillas and supply food to his Unionist troops. So Harrison established the concept of a protected village but not that composed of unwilling civilians has would be done in latter counterinsurgency conflicts.
Leftyhunter
 
There was de facto population removal on both sides where civilians perceived as hostile had to move from a given location as in the Union order #11 in Missouri.
Lefty, I think we all understand your overall point, but your post is slightly inaccurate. Order Number 11 removed ALL civilians from four border counties in Missouri--not just those perceived as hostile. That's why so many of us think it was an immoral order. Yes, I know you will want to school us about the fact that civilians often get abused during COIN warfare. Maybe they do, but let's make sure everyone reading the thread understands that ALL civilians were forced off their premises during the infamous Order Number 11. The "lucky" ones were allowed to move to a garrison town. Their farms were still plundered and burned. Purely immoral...
 
Lefty, I think we all understand your overall point, but your post is slightly inaccurate. Order Number 11 removed ALL civilians from four border counties in Missouri--not just those perceived as hostile. That's why so many of us think it was an immoral order. Yes, I know you will want to school us about the fact that civilians often get abused during COIN warfare. Maybe they do, but let's make sure everyone reading the thread understands that ALL civilians were forced off their premises during the infamous Order Number 11. The "lucky" ones were allowed to move to a garrison town. Their farms were still plundered and burned. Purely immoral...

"General Order No. 11 decreed as follows:

  1. The Jews, as a class violating every regulation of trade established by the Treasury Department and also department orders, are hereby expelled from the Department [of the Tennessee] within twenty-four hours from the receipt of this order.
  2. Post commanders will see to it that all of this class of people be furnished passes and required to leave, and anyone returning after such notification will be arrested and held in confinement until an opportunity occurs of sending them out as prisoners unless furnished with permit from headquarters.
  3. No passes will be given these people to visit headquarters for the purpose of making personal application of trade permits."
John Y Simon (1979). The Papers of Ulysses S. Grant, Volume 7: December 9, 1862 – March 31, 1863. SIU Press.
Judaic Treasures of the Library of Congress: "Order No. 11," Jewish Virtual Library.
 
"General Order No. 11 decreed as follows:

  1. The Jews, as a class violating every regulation of trade established by the Treasury Department and also department orders, are hereby expelled from the Department [of the Tennessee] within twenty-four hours from the receipt of this order.
  2. Post commanders will see to it that all of this class of people be furnished passes and required to leave, and anyone returning after such notification will be arrested and held in confinement until an opportunity occurs of sending them out as prisoners unless furnished with permit from headquarters.
  3. No passes will be given these people to visit headquarters for the purpose of making personal application of trade permits."
John Y Simon (1979). The Papers of Ulysses S. Grant, Volume 7: December 9, 1862 – March 31, 1863. SIU Press.
Judaic Treasures of the Library of Congress: "Order No. 11," Jewish Virtual Library.
wrong general order no 11

General Order № 11.

Headquarters District of the Border,
Kansas City, August 25, 1863.

1. All persons living in Jackson, Cass, and Bates counties, Missouri, and in that part of Vernon included in this district, except those living within one mile of the limits of Independence, Hickman's Mills, Pleasant Hill, and Harrisonville, and except those in that part of Kaw Township, Jackson County, north of Brush Creek and west of Big Blue, are hereby ordered to remove from their present places of residence within fifteen days from the date hereof.

Those who within that time establish their loyalty to the satisfaction of the commanding officer of the military station near their present place of residence will receive from him a certificate stating the fact of their loyalty, and the names of the witnesses by whom it can be shown. All who receive such certificates will be permitted to remove to any military station in this district, or to any part of the State of Kansas, except the counties of the eastern border of the State. All others shall remove out of the district. Officers commanding companies and detachments serving in the counties named will see that this paragraph is promptly obeyed.

2. All grain and hay in the field or under shelter, in the district from which inhabitants are required to remove, within reach of military stations after the 9th day of September next, will be taken to such stations and turned over to the proper officers there and report of the amount so turned over made to district headquarters, specifying the names of all loyal owners and amount of such product taken from them. All grain and hay found in such district after the 9th day of September next, not convenient to such stations, will be destroyed.

3. The provisions of General Order No. 10 from these headquarters will be at once vigorously executed by officers commanding in the parts of the district and at the station not subject to the operations of paragraph 1 of this order, and especially the towns of Independence, Westport and Kansas City.

4. Paragraph 3, General Order No. 10 is revoked as to all who have borne arms against the Government in the district since the 20th day of August, 1863.

By order of Brigadier General Ewing.
H. Hannahs, Adjt.-Gen'l.
 
"General Order No. 11 decreed as follows:

  1. The Jews, as a class violating every regulation of trade established by the Treasury Department and also department orders, are hereby expelled from the Department [of the Tennessee] within twenty-four hours from the receipt of this order.
  2. Post commanders will see to it that all of this class of people be furnished passes and required to leave, and anyone returning after such notification will be arrested and held in confinement until an opportunity occurs of sending them out as prisoners unless furnished with permit from headquarters.
  3. No passes will be given these people to visit headquarters for the purpose of making personal application of trade permits."
John Y Simon (1979). The Papers of Ulysses S. Grant, Volume 7: December 9, 1862 – March 31, 1863. SIU Press.
Judaic Treasures of the Library of Congress: "Order No. 11," Jewish Virtual Library.
I don't doubt the order you cite. However, Lefty and I were referring to General Ewing's infamous General Orders Number 11, issued shortly after Quantrill's August, 1873 raid on Lawrence, Kansas. Our friend, Archie Clements, has detailed the order we are discussing here.
 
wrong general order no 11

General Order № 11.

Headquarters District of the Border,
Kansas City, August 25, 1863.

1. All persons living in Jackson, Cass, and Bates counties, Missouri, and in that part of Vernon included in this district, except those living within one mile of the limits of Independence, Hickman's Mills, Pleasant Hill, and Harrisonville, and except those in that part of Kaw Township, Jackson County, north of Brush Creek and west of Big Blue, are hereby ordered to remove from their present places of residence within fifteen days from the date hereof.

Those who within that time establish their loyalty to the satisfaction of the commanding officer of the military station near their present place of residence will receive from him a certificate stating the fact of their loyalty, and the names of the witnesses by whom it can be shown. All who receive such certificates will be permitted to remove to any military station in this district, or to any part of the State of Kansas, except the counties of the eastern border of the State. All others shall remove out of the district. Officers commanding companies and detachments serving in the counties named will see that this paragraph is promptly obeyed.

2. All grain and hay in the field or under shelter, in the district from which inhabitants are required to remove, within reach of military stations after the 9th day of September next, will be taken to such stations and turned over to the proper officers there and report of the amount so turned over made to district headquarters, specifying the names of all loyal owners and amount of such product taken from them. All grain and hay found in such district after the 9th day of September next, not convenient to such stations, will be destroyed.

3. The provisions of General Order No. 10 from these headquarters will be at once vigorously executed by officers commanding in the parts of the district and at the station not subject to the operations of paragraph 1 of this order, and especially the towns of Independence, Westport and Kansas City.

4. Paragraph 3, General Order No. 10 is revoked as to all who have borne arms against the Government in the district since the 20th day of August, 1863.

By order of Brigadier General Ewing.
H. Hannahs, Adjt.-Gen'l.


Interesting! I knew I was sure the one mentioned by Grant targeted Jews, as a result of his anger towards Forrest. Great book by Jonathan Sarna on this segment.

Thanks for highlighting this!

Great research topic as to scope and scale of these General Orders.
 
This general order did not distinguish between unionists, neutrals, or rebels, all forfeited any improvements on their property and were forced to leave it.....by the very government that was supposed to be protecting them as US citizens and their property in a US state by the US military...….
 
This general order did not distinguish between unionists, neutrals, or rebels, all forfeited any improvements on their property and were forced to leave it.....by the very government that was supposed to be protecting them and their property.
How right you are, Archie! You obviously loath this order about as much as I do. I hate to see it misrepresented for anything other than the immoral order that I believe it was. Of course, that's my opinion. Yours too, I think...
 
This general order did not distinguish between unionists, neutrals, or rebels, all forfeited any improvements on their property and were forced to leave it.....by the very government that was supposed to be protecting them and their property in a US state by the US military...….

Striking....
 
How right you are, Archie! You obviously loath this order about as much as I do. I hate to see it misrepresented for anything other than the immoral order that I believe it was. Of course, that's my opinion. Yours too, I think...
Yippers not much a way to spin it other then a complete admission of the US authorities of a complete failure to protect and uphold the rights of its citizens, to the point they simply gave up any pretext at all of upholding their rights and property.....

That's the silly part of trying to compare it to any other counter-insurgency in our history...……..this wasn't a foreign country, occupied territory or a occupied state...But US citizens in a US state who were arbitrarily deprived their property and liberty by the very people who were supposed to be ensuring it......
 
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Lefty, I think we all understand your overall point, but your post is slightly inaccurate. Order Number 11 removed ALL civilians from four border counties in Missouri--not just those perceived as hostile. That's why so many of us think it was an immoral order. Yes, I know you will want to school us about the fact that civilians often get abused during COIN warfare. Maybe they do, but let's make sure everyone reading the thread understands that ALL civilians were forced off their premises during the infamous Order Number 11. The "lucky" ones were allowed to move to a garrison town. Their farms were still plundered and burned. Purely immoral...
Actually the above describes basic counterinsurgency. Yes loyal civilians did get to relocate in the general area.
Order No 11 was not the last such order or similar policy carried out bt the U.S. govt in the last 150 odd year.
Has far as morality issues relating to counterinsurgency that deserves it's own thread.
Leftyhunter
 
Interesting! I knew I was sure the one mentioned by Grant targeted Jews, as a result of his anger towards Forrest. Great book by Jonathan Sarna on this segment.

Thanks for highlighting this!

Great research topic as to scope and scale of these General Orders.

An interesting PM thread since it would involve modern politics is to compare Civil War counterinsurgency to modern counterinsurgency.
For example one author credited Colonel Harrison's armed communes to the Kibbutz settlements that were created 40 odd plus years in Turkish Palestine.
Leftyhunter
 
How right you are, Archie! You obviously loath this order about as much as I do. I hate to see it misrepresented for anything other than the immoral order that I believe it was. Of course, that's my opinion. Yours too, I think...
Again lets create a new thread on the morality of counterinsurgency policy. This thread does not address that issue.
Leftyhunter
 

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