Uniform Identification

[lelliott19]

The guys name is Raphael Gulliani and there no Gulliani or the spelling Guliani as in Major Rudy in Fold3 CW service records.

 

[WJC]

It's a long bizarre story that will be going into a book I'm writing.

This guy was quite a character. I knew about his federal service (he used at least two aliases that I know of) and then someone on ancestry contacted me saying they had his photo and some post-war photos.

He went into the 8th Virginia as a substitute in December 1861 and was discharged in August of 1862 in Richmond. That's when he went north.

He apparently stayed in contact with the Virginia man he substituted for and sent him this daguerreotype and a couple of letters. Those have been passed down through the family.

After the war he served in the 45th US and the 14th US out west.

Welcome aboard! Good to see you are already posting great information. When do you expect your book to come out?

 

[Bloody7th]

Welcome aboard! Good to see you are already posting great information. When do you expect your book to come out?

Hopefully by late next year...working title is Yankees in Gray. I'd love to share more publicly but want to save it for the book....

 

[Bloody7th]

I believe that he had this photo taken in Richmond after enlisting in the 8th Virginia and then sent it to his friend in Virginia. Suspect that it would have been tricky, (and a tad suspicious) for him to have tried to mail this to his friend while serving in one of the Federal units.

So I guess my question is would the uniform he's wearing be consistent with an 8th Virginia soldier in 1861 - 1862?

The previous poster of the NC soldier leads me to believe that it is possible...

Love this forum, and thank you all for the input.

 

[major bill]

from: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/28429041375950433/

Looks almost identical to this North Carolina frock. Same trim on collar, height of collar, eight buttons, etc.

I am suspicious that this is an 8 button frock. Spacing would seem to indicate a 9th button under the belt plate.

 

[WJC]

Hopefully by late next year...working title is Yankees in Gray. I'd love to share more publicly but want to save it for the book....

Thanks for your response.
Yes, by all means, save for the book. But be sure to tantalize us from time to time with some excerpts or story line information!
Meanwhile, be sure to join the conversation in other areas....

 

[gunny]

I am suspicious that this is an 8 button frock. Spacing would seem to indicate a 9th button under the belt plate.

But - there are only seven visible, and accounting for another makes eight?

 

[major bill]

But - there are only seven visible, and accounting for another makes eight?

I see 8 visible buttons (one underneath the belt plate and a buttom behind the belt plate. Now the button bellow the belt plate is fuzzy and may not in fact be a button at all.

 

[Package4]

It's a long bizarre story that will be going into a book I'm writing.

This guy was quite a character. I knew about his federal service (he used at least two aliases that I know of) and then someone on ancestry contacted me saying they had his photo and some post-war photos.

He went into the 8th Virginia as a substitute in December 1861 and was discharged in August of 1862 in Richmond. That's when he went north.

He apparently stayed in contact with the Virginia man he substituted for and sent him this daguerreotype and a couple of letters. Those have been passed down through the family.

After the war he served in the 45th US and the 14th US out west.

He would not have been a substitute as there was no conscription in the southern states in 1861, maybe more research will determine why it was thought he went in the place of another. April of 1862, the Confederacy passed the very first conscription act of either army.

from: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/28429041375950433/

Looks almost identical to this North Carolina frock. Same trim on collar, height of collar, eight buttons, etc.

That too is a federal frock coat, they both are, in fact both are early war coats as evidenced by the high collar.

 

[Package4]

from: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/28429041375950433/

Looks almost identical to this North Carolina frock. Same trim on collar, height of collar, eight buttons, etc.

That is also a federal frock coat

 

[Package4]

I believe that he had this photo taken in Richmond after enlisting in the 8th Virginia and then sent it to his friend in Virginia. Suspect that it would have been tricky, (and a tad suspicious) for him to have tried to mail this to his friend while serving in one of the Federal units.

So I guess my question is would the uniform he's wearing be consistent with an 8th Virginia soldier in 1861 - 1862?

The previous poster of the NC soldier leads me to believe that it is possible...

Love this forum, and thank you all for the input.

No, that is a federal frock coat and not at all consistent with a Virginia Infantryman's coat. Virginia infantrymen of that time period would have worn either a grey frockcoat with a black or blue collar and cuffs or a commutation shell jacket also in grey.

 

[Package4]

Raphael Julian
Residence was not listed;
Enlisted as a Private (date unknown).
He was listed as:
* Hospitalized 5/31/1862 Richmond, VA
* Returned 6/12/1862 (place not stated) (To duty)
He also had service in:
"K" Co. VA 8th Infantry

 

[gunny]

That is also a federal frock coat

Is this a Federal frock too?

 

[James N.]

I am by no means sure, but most regulation Federal frock coats had nine buttons - this one appears to have eight. Uniformity was found to a much lesser degree in the Confederate army. Not to be sure, but may be early war Confederate frock coat?

Looks like a standard Federal frock coat.

Welcome to the forums; this type frock coat was U.S. regulation for foot soldiers from the 1850's until 1872.

 

[James N.]

Is this a Federal frock too?
View attachment 170864

Not a regulation one - compare how the piping on the collar is set into the seam vs. how it borders the collar in the OP. THIS one looks like it could be a Confederate frock.

 

[Package4]

Is this a Federal frock too?
View attachment 170864

No though it is patterned off of one, but it is an officer's frock of early war pattern and of a western confederate unit and not a Virginia unit, any more questions?

 

[gunny]

I believe that he had this photo taken in Richmond after enlisting in the 8th Virginia and then sent it to his friend in Virginia. Suspect that it would have been tricky, (and a tad suspicious) for him to have tried to mail this to his friend while serving in one of the Federal units.

So I guess my question is would the uniform he's wearing be consistent with an 8th Virginia soldier in 1861 - 1862?

The previous poster of the NC soldier leads me to believe that it is possible...

Love this forum, and thank you all for the input.

No though it is patterned off of one, but it is an officer's frock of early war pattern and of a western confederate unit and not a Virginia unit, any more questions?

I just think it's kinda funny how anyone can say without hesitation that a uniform is this or that. My point is, that many coats or jackets look similar and it is impossible to say - with conviction - that it is one thing or the other. Based off the OP and later remarks by Bloody7th, it was more than likely a Confederate early war model frock that closely resembled the Federal issue at the time.

Bloody7th, I believe it is an early war Confederate frock. But, we can't say for sure. Your story makes sense. Plus, the guy looks to be in good health and had not yet suffered the exposure of camp and field life yet. He seems to almost have a slight smirk on his face.

 

[Package4]

I just think it's kinda funny how anyone can say without hesitation that a uniform is this or that. My point is, that many coats or jackets look similar and it is impossible to say - with conviction - that it is one thing or the other. Based off the OP and later remarks by Bloody7th, it was more than likely a Confederate early war model frock that closely resembled the Federal issue at the time.

Bloody7th, I believe it is an early war Confederate frock. But, we can't say for sure. Your story makes sense. Plus, the guy looks to be in good health and had not yet suffered the exposure of camp and field life yet. He seems to almost have a slight smirk on his face.

Studying ACW uniforms for over 20 years, I have never seen a Virginia Frock coat that exactly mimics a federal frock. There were Virginia militia coats of blue 1858, but they did not have the infantry branch piping and were largely gone by the time this soldier enlisted in 1861. The coat he is wearing is new and the state of Virginia was not producing blue coats with blue piping in 1861, in fact they were producing an abundance of grey cloth from Crenshaw Woolen Company (Richmond) in 1860 when it was converted from a flour mill. Since the subject also served in the federal army, it makes perfect sense that this was taken in 1862 while a federal soldier.
The other coat you referenced purportedly from North Carolina, is obviously a federal frock, in fact the soldier is also wearing a federal belt buckle.

Officers of the Virginia state militia did in fact wear the US army blue frock, but again without piping. In fact the coat he is wearing is almost identical to a coat in my collection, though Stephen Parker had the collar tailored for field wear:

 

[major bill]

I just think it's kinda funny how anyone can say without hesitation that a uniform is this or that. My point is, that many coats or jackets look similar and it is impossible to say - with conviction - that it is one thing or the other. Based off the OP and later remarks by Bloody7th, it was more than likely a Confederate early war model frock that closely resembled the Federal issue at the time.

Bloody7th, I believe it is an early war Confederate frock. But, we can't say for sure. Your story makes sense. Plus, the guy looks to be in good health and had not yet suffered the exposure of camp and field life yet. He seems to almost have a slight smirk on his face.

We are offering advice based on what we know or have studied. No advice is absolute and forum members are free to believe what they like.

So is it possible some yet to be found information will turn up that says a Virginia company adopted near exact copies of Federal frock coats? Yes it is possible. However, there is a high probability the the frock coat in post #1 is a federal frock coat or a very near copy of a federal frock coat.

 

[Package4]

We are offering advice based on what we know or have studied. No advice is absolute and forum members are free to believe what they like.

So is it possible some yet to be found information will turn up that says a Virginia company adopted near exact copies of Federal frock coats? Yes it is possible. However, there is a high probability the the frock coat in post #1 is a federal frock coat or a very near copy of a federal frock coat.

Not beating the proverbial horse, but from an educational standpoint the following pieces of headgear are very early war Virginia pieces. The first is I'd to William Simpson, a corporal in the 2nd VA Inf Co. F enlisting in April 1861 @ Winchester, VA. The kepi was made by his wife and shows little use, Les Jensen believes that there was most likely a regimental issue that took place and Simpson simply sent this home.

The second piece is I'd to William Patton, who enlisted April 20th, 1861 in Lexington, VA in the 4th VA Co H; Les Jensen believes this to be his militia kepi and the braid was added in April when he was commissioned a 2nd Lt. We know this is an early war kepi, not only from the construction and color, but Patton died just after Manassas, from dysentery.

The third, is a combination forage cap/kepi, appears to be homemade and was found in a home in Winchester, VA, in the walls when it was being renovated recently to a B&B. The home was a field hospital during the battle of Kernstown and many of the artifacts found were from the 5th VA infantry.

As you can see, the Virginia regiments were striving for as consistent a look and color as would have been possible. By the time the 8th VA was outfitted I would have expected that gray was fully implemented and issued as required.