Trying to identify this short sword

[wwf]

A cousin has the short sword shown in the photo. It belonged to our mutual 2g-uncle who served in the Regular Army from 1856 until his retirement (for age) in 1899. He started as a private in infantry, was a sergeant early in the Civil War, was commissioned as lieutenant in the 11th Infantry, and after the war served in the Indian Wars as company commander in the 1st Cavalry. He participated in all the major engagements with the Army of the Potomac and, later, the Apache engagements, the Modoc war, the Bannock war, the Nez Perce pursuit, and much else. He retired at Lt. Colonel (retired rank raised to colonel).

We have no idea if this short sword is of CW vintage, official issue, or whatever. Another cousin has the uncle's Army Colt, all his commission papers, etc., and I have his M1860 Ames sword. I don't know if I can get better photos but can ask.

Any thoughts regarding this sword would be appreciated.

 

[HatEnjoyer]

I'm not sure if the US copied/imported it or not, but this appears to be a Saxon M1845 Faschinenmesser. Are there any markings on it?

Here's a link to one: https://stewartsmilitaryantiques.co...45-faschinenmesser-matching.43084.archive.htm

 

[Dan Kohli]

It definitely doesn't look like any sword or saber the Regular Army issued during the time period that your uncle served that I am aware of.

 

[HatEnjoyer]

It definitely doesn't look like any sword or saber the Regular Army issued during the time period that your uncle served that I am aware of.

Yeah, I've never heard of Saxon Faschinenmessers being used during the Civil War. They're most well known for their use in the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-71. Maybe his 2x great uncle did a bit of traveling and came home with a souvenir?

 

[wwf]

Yeah, I've never heard of Saxon Faschinenmessers being used during the Civil War. They're most well known for their use in the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-71. Maybe his 2x great uncle did a bit of traveling and came home with a souvenir?

That's a possibility. He was an immigrant from Bavaria (Nürnburg) and traveled back to Germany on leave about 1879.

 

[wwf]

I'm not sure if the US copied/imported it or not, but this appears to be a Saxon M1845 Faschinenmesser. Are there any markings on it?

Here's a link to one: https://stewartsmilitaryantiques.co...45-faschinenmesser-matching.43084.archive.htm

I'll try to get photos of any markings. Thanks.

 

[R. Porter]

There is a book on the faschinenmesser.

There is one entry for Bavaria, but it doesn't quite seem to be a match. It is the Bayerisches Infanterie-Faschinenmesser M 1830. The quillons seem smaller and more rigid and you can see where the rivets are on the grips portion of the brass hilt. Also there doesn't seem to be a pronounced ricasso on the blade.

If we go back to the beginning with the Preussisches Fusilier-Faschinenmesser M 1787 and pick one without the thumb ring, we still see some of the differences that appear with the Bavarian 1830. Even though you don't see the rivets, the bottom ring on the grip is not exaggerated.

We do have some other choices to consider. For example the Sachsisches Faschinenmesser M 1845. This one doesn't show rivets, has an exaggerated first grip ring and the blade shows a ricasso. The quillons are somewhat fluid and substantial. This looks like a good choice.

The Sachsen Artillerie-Faschinenmesser M 1849 has visible rivets in the grips, a flat lowest grip ring, more rigid looking quillons, and a full ricasso at the base of the blade on either side. Other models get further and further away from the sword in the original post. Starting about 1849 the date of acceptance was stamped on the spine as a two digit number with the "18" part of the date being understood. After the turn of the century, the "19" part of the date was understood.

I would go with the Saxon Facine Knife Model 1845. As usual, I'm not an expert, but I do have a book, but the book is written in German, and I don't speak or read German.

 

[R. Porter]

The last image in my previous post doesn't have the swords from top to bottom in date order. The Model 1845 is the second one down and the saw-toothed one below it is the Model 1841.

 

[HatEnjoyer]

There is a book on the faschinenmesser.View attachment 523427

There is one entry for Bavaria, but it doesn't quite seem to be a match. It is the Bayerisches Infanterie-Faschinenmesser M 1830. The quillons seem smaller and more rigid and you can see where the rivets are on the grips portion of the brass hilt. Also there doesn't seem to be a pronounced ricasso on the blade.

View attachment 523428
If we go back to the beginning with the Preussisches Fusilier-Faschinenmesser M 1787 and pick one without the thumb ring, we still see some of the differences that appear with the Bavarian 1830. Even though you don't see the rivets, the bottom ring on the grip is not exaggerated.

View attachment 523432

We do have some other choices to consider. For example the Sachsisches Faschinenmesser M 1845. This one doesn't show rivets, has an exaggerated first grip ring and the blade shows a ricasso. The quillons are somewhat fluid and substantial. This looks like a good choice.

View attachment 523429

The Sachsen Artillerie-Faschinenmesser M 1849 has visible rivets in the grips, a flat lowest grip ring, more rigid looking quillons, and a full ricasso at the base of the blade on either side. Other models get further and further away from the sword in the original post. Starting about 1849 the date of acceptance was stamped on the spine as a two digit number with the "18" part of the date being understood. After the turn of the century, the "19" part of the date was understood.

I would go with the Saxon Facine Knife Model 1845. As usual, I'm not an expert, but I do have a book, but the book is written in German, and I don't speak or read German.

View attachment 523430

View attachment 523431

Perfect, a reference book! Neat to see all the different types. I've always been a sucker for German sawback blades.

 

[wwf]

The last image in my previous post doesn't have the swords from top to bottom in date order. The Model 1845 is the second one down and the saw-toothed one below it is the Model 1841.

Thank you for the photos etc. I'd never heard of this style before and had no idea what it might be.

I mentioned my 2g-uncle as from Bavaria. His brother-in-law was from Holstein which, if I recall, is adjacent to Saxony. It's possible he stopped in that area on his 1879 home leave. Of course, depending on age, it's also possible that he picked it up some other time during his career - I can see something like that being useful during the Indian wars.

 

[wwf]

My cousin has supplied two more photos of the short sword. One, out of focus unfortunately, shows what appears to be a crown and lettering on the ricosso. The other shows markings on the hand guard and scabbard. These appear very similar to and consistent with the markings shown on the link provided by HatEnjoyer [https://stewartsmilitaryantiques.co...45-faschinenmesser-matching.43084.archive.htm ] Presumably the guard marking refers to the military unit and might be useful in identifying the age as well.

Thanks to you all!

 

[R. Porter]

Are there any markings to indicate it was inspected and accepted by the Saxon military or issued to a military unit? I wonder if some European short swords did make it over for the American Civil fastWar during those first months.

Edit:
Oops! My tablet didn't load images fast enough and I didn't see the unit marking before commenting.

 

[wwf]

There is a book on the faschinenmesser.View attachment 523427

There is one entry for Bavaria, but it doesn't quite seem to be a match. It is the Bayerisches Infanterie-Faschinenmesser M 1830. The quillons seem smaller and more rigid and you can see where the rivets are on the grips portion of the brass hilt. Also there doesn't seem to be a pronounced ricasso on the blade.

View attachment 523428
If we go back to the beginning with the Preussisches Fusilier-Faschinenmesser M 1787 and pick one without the thumb ring, we still see some of the differences that appear with the Bavarian 1830. Even though you don't see the rivets, the bottom ring on the grip is not exaggerated.

View attachment 523432

We do have some other choices to consider. For example the Sachsisches Faschinenmesser M 1845. This one doesn't show rivets, has an exaggerated first grip ring and the blade shows a ricasso. The quillons are somewhat fluid and substantial. This looks like a good choice.

View attachment 523429

The Sachsen Artillerie-Faschinenmesser M 1849 has visible rivets in the grips, a flat lowest grip ring, more rigid looking quillons, and a full ricasso at the base of the blade on either side. Other models get further and further away from the sword in the original post. Starting about 1849 the date of acceptance was stamped on the spine as a two digit number with the "18" part of the date being understood. After the turn of the century, the "19" part of the date was understood.

I would go with the Saxon Facine Knife Model 1845. As usual, I'm not an expert, but I do have a book, but the book is written in German, and I don't speak or read German.

View attachment 523430

View attachment 523431

I just noticed that the cover of the book has "Preussen, Sachsen, Bayern, Württemberg" at the bottom, suggesting that all four German states used this sword. "Bayern" is German for Bavaria where my uncle's family lived. It seems even more likely that he obtained his sword in that state.

 

[Old Soldier]

103 . R . E . 1 . 132
103 (Infantry) Regiment, Erzatz (reserve),1 (company), weapon number132
Kgl. Sächs. 4. Infanterie-Regiment Nr.103
103rd (4th Royal Saxon) Infantry Regiment based around Bautzen formed 1709, disbanded 1919.

!!and matching scabbard!!

The JR under the crown may be King Joseph of Saxony (reigned 1834–1848)

 

[wwf]

103 . R . E . 1 . 132
103 (Infantry) Regiment, Erzatz (reserve),1 (company), weapon number132
Kgl. Sächs. 4. Infanterie-Regiment Nr.103
103rd (4th Royal Saxon) Infantry Regiment based around Bautzen formed 1709, disbanded 1919.

!!and matching scabbard!!

The JR under the crown may be King Joseph of Saxony (reigned 1834–1848)

Wow! Way cool! Thank you for deciphering that.