Thoughts about General John Gibbon?

[neyankee61]

Gibbon and Hancock had a falling out outside of Petersburg June 1864. Both men were exhausted from the never ending marching, fighting, the heat, and the overall stress.. Hancock's wound was open and causing him immense trouble. It is possible that Gibbon's wound was bothering him too. Gibbon would be transferred out of the II Corps and given command of the XXV Corps. Hancock was leave the II Corps also. It damaged the relationship between Hancock and Gibbon in the post war years.
Both Meade and Hancock thought highly of Gibbon, enough to give him control of the II Corps on July 1 when Meade ordered Hancock to Gettysburg and to turn the II Corps over to Gibbon.

 

[Belfoured]

Gibbon and Hancock had a falling out outside of Petersburg June 1864. Both men were exhausted from the never ending marching, fighting, the heat, and the overall stress.. Hancock's wound was open and causing him immense trouble. It is possible that Gibbon's wound was bothering him too. Gibbon would be transferred out of the II Corps and given command of the XXV Corps. Hancock was leave the II Corps also. It damaged the relationship between Hancock and Gibbon in the post war years.
Both Meade and Hancock thought highly of Gibbon, enough to give him control of the II Corps on July 1 when Meade ordered Hancock to Gettysburg and to turn the II Corps over to Gibbon.

I think the tipping point was less a personal falling out between them than it was the failure of the II Corps at the Second Battle of Reams Station in late August 1864. The II Corps was pretty much fought out by that point and their performance in that fighting was the final "straw". Hancock was invalided and Gibbon took temporary command of the XVIII Corps before going on leave himself (when Godfrey Weitzel succeeded him).

 

[FPT]

John Gibbon was an excellent commander at every level of command. He was the first commander of the Iron Brigade, and was known as a strict drillmaster. Many of the men swore they would shoot him in their first engagement. But the training he gave them allowed them as green troops to go toe-to-toe with Jackson´s Corps for 3 hours until darkness separated the combatants. He commanded the Brigade at South Mountain where they got their nickname, and at Antietam where they charged The Cornfield. Kicked up to division command, he led a division at Fredericksburg and swore ¨he´d rather have one regiment of my old brigade than this whole damned division.¨ 6 months later his division of Hancock´s Corp held against Pickett at Gettysburg. His troops captured Fort Gregg at Petersburg in April 1865. After the war, he reverted to his permanent pre-war rank of Captain of artillery. Rather than resign, he did his duty and rose in rank again to Col. He commanded one wing of the the 1876 Great Sioux War, where he told Custer: ¨Wait for us, Custer; there are enough Indians for all of us.¨ The famous reply was ¨No. I won´t.¨ It was Gibbon´s men who relieved Custer´s survivor´s on the banks of the Little Bighorn, and buried the dead. I believe John Gibbon personally identified Custer´s remains. Gibbon also participated in scientific expeditions in the west; there´s a waterfall named for him in Yellowstone National Park. After the war, he was an honored guest at Iron Brigade reunions, where he remarked once that the 5-pointed Brigade insignia meant more to him than his Corps badge. These are just some random highlights but, you can see, he´s a hero of mine.

"5 pointed Brigade insignia" Was this a postwar decoration or something worn on the uniform coat or hat?

 

[7thWisconsin]

"5 pointed Brigade insignia" Was this a postwar decoration or something worn on the uniform coat or hat?

It was a postwar item the veterans developed. They wore them at reunions, etc.

 

[elmira64]

Always felt Gibbon was overlooked. I believe in part because he was not drawn into the political intrigue like so many of his contemporaries. He was also a straight shooter, which I imagine worked against him at times. John Gibbon above all was a professional soldier and took his trade seriously. Personal Recollections of the Civil War and Adventures on the Western Frontier are two books by Gibbon that deserve mention. Both published after his death, his sometimes candid observations and descriptive writing give a good impression of who John Gibbon was.

 

[Nathan Stuart]

Gibbon was a veteran artillerist and native North Carolinian (not born there though). He was the first to organize the Union Army's 'Iron Brigade'.

He proved to be a very competent Divisional commander in the Army of the Potomac.

 

[Cavalier]

Just an opinion, but I think it was Gibbon that put the iron in the Iron Brigade.

John

 

[elmira64]

John Gibbon wrote the highly scientific treatise The Artillerist's Manual of 1859. This manual was used by both sides. Gibbon was considered such an artillery expert that General Irvin McDowell made him chief of artillery. Despite his expertise in artillery Gibbon was soon promoted and left artillery in the past. He was acting Corps commander and his men bore the blunt of Pickett's Charge. So some questions.

1) Why do we not hear much about General Gibbon?
2) How well did he preform at the Battle of Gettysburg?
3) He had three brothers and two brother-in-laws serve in the Confederate army. Did John Gibbon give any thought of resigning and serving in the Confederate army?
4) If Gibbon had served in the Confederate army would of he made a major impact? Would he have obtained high rank in the Confederate army?
5) Was his service in the post Civil War, Indian Wars (Nez Perce campaign) noteworthy?

I thought about the five points you put forward and will attempt to answer as best as I am able.
1. My previous post relates my thoughts in part. I might add that his respect / sympathies toward the Indians was not favorable to his
legacy. Gibbon also had a propensity toward speaking his mind. In short, if you might not like the answer don't ask Gibbon his
opinion.
2. That is well established, as is his record throughout his service.
3. Never recollect him recording much about this. I would guess given his principles, he did not consider that an option.
4. I would assume he would have equalled if not exceeded what he achieved in Federal service.
5. I imagine that could be a matter of opinion. Adventures on the Western Frontier is a good source on the subject.
I hope if anything this would add to and encourage more discussion on the topic of John Gibbon. It is certainly long overdue.

 

[elmira64]

The only biography of Gibbon I am aware of is Iron Brigade General John Gibbon, Rebel in Blue. Has anyone here read it? Never able to get a copy. Usually about $85. or more.

 

[wausaubob]

Just to add a point, Gibbon was an instructor in artillery at West Point when he wrote the Manual in 1859. The Manual was not a drill manual, but was more of a treatise covering the art and science of being an artillerist, dealing with multiple technical issues including the equipment and ordnance, and addressing the theory and physics of fire, the history of artillery, selection of horses, tactics, etc. Like so many guys who started the war as artillerists (e.g., Griffin, Ricketts, Upton, etc) moving to the infantry presented the possibility of promotion to higher rank. Once a gunner always a gunner, he did get briefly involved serving a piece at Antietam - it was actually in his old Battery B 4th US, which he had commanded in Utah where, as @ericwittenberg points out, he roomed with some guy named Buford.

He would have been close to Alfred Mordecai, I assume. At least while at West Point and Cold Springs.

 

[Belfoured]

He would have been close to Alfred Mordecai, I assume. At least while at West Point and Cold Springs.

Not sure about that. Gibbon was appointed an artillery instructor at USMA effective September 25, 1854. He was also appointed post quartermaster September 16, 1856 and ended his duties as artillery instructor effective July 5, 1857. (He began compiling his notes into treatise form). In November 1859 he was promoted to Captain and given command of Battery B, 4th US (then in Utah Territory as a result of the 1857 Mormon Rebellion). As we know, Mordecai was commander of the Washington Arsenal until he left as a member of the Delafield Commission in April 1855; returned to Washington in April 1856; and in summer 1857 was put in command of the Watervliet Arsenal in Troy NY. While he was assigned to a Board to study the USMA curriculum, that was not until January 1860, after Gibbon had gone west. No doubt Gibbon was well familiar with Mordecai's advocacy of the cannon-obusier (which the US adapted as the M. 1857 Napoleon) but I'm not aware of any close connection while Gibbon was assigned to the USMA

 

[wausaubob]

Not sure about that. Gibbon was appointed an artillery instructor at USMA effective September 25, 1854. He was also appointed post quartermaster September 16, 1856 and ended his duties as artillery instructor effective July 5, 1857. (He began compiling his notes into treatise form). In November 1859 he was promoted to Captain and given command of Battery B, 4th US (then in Utah Territory as a result of the 1857 Mormon Rebellion). As we know, Mordecai was commander of the Washington Arsenal until he left as a member of the Delafield Commission in April 1855; returned to Washington in April 1856; and in summer 1857 was put in command of the Watervliet Arsenal in Troy NY. While he was assigned to a Board to study the USMA curriculum, that was not until January 1860, after Gibbon had gone west. No doubt Gibbon was well familiar with Mordecai's advocacy of the cannon-obusier (which the US adapted as the M. 1857 Napoleon) but I'm not aware of any close connection while Gibbon was assigned to the USMA

They were the two leading experts on artillery in the pre war army. If the never met, they at least they relied on each other's studies. Mordecai was from No. Carolina and Gibbon grew up there. But Mordecai quit the army, and Gibbon stayed with the US.
Mordecai seems to have become more interested in pure math and teaching, which makes me think of trigonometry and calculus.
Gibbon is evidence that an artillery trained officer could command infantry, which suggests it is communication skills and the ability to handle men that mattered.
If the never spoke, the knew the same people and read the same literature.

 

[wausaubob]

John Gibbon's post Civil War career was exciting but unfortunately he was forced to relinquish his command during the Nez Perce campaign of 1877. His hip wound from Gettysburg coupled with another wound forced him from the field
It has been a subject of debate among Little Big Horn students the role, if any, that his Montana Command played in the rescue of Major Reno's 7th Cavalry survivors of the fight on June 25, 1876.

I personally believe Gibbon's arrival influenced the Sioux and Northern Cheyenne to leave the scene thus saving Reno's survivors.
Peace to his ashes!
Regards
David

Wouldn't Gibbon and Terry have known that Custer was under self imposed pressure to do something impressive? How did Custer get separated from the other commands?

 

[7thWisconsin]

Custer had the only all cavalry command. His job was to locate the Indians, notify the other commands so that they could converge, and make sure that they didn´t slip away. Gibbon´s parting words to Custer were something like ¨Wait for us, Custer. There are enough Indians for all of us.¨ To which Custer replied ¨No. I won´t.¨ The next time Gibbon saw him, he was dead.

 

[dlofting]

Wouldn't Gibbon and Terry have known that Custer was under self imposed pressure to do something impressive? How did Custer get separated from the other commands?

You have to remember that the army was trying to locate the Lakota/Cheyenne and then not let them escape. This is why Terry split his forces and let Custer go up the Rosebud while Gibbon went to the mouth of the Bighorn. No one expected the Lakota/Cheyenne to stand and fight against either Gibbon or Custer, but that is exactly what happened. That's why I consider Sitting Bull to be a great "political" leader like Lenin and Crazy Horse to be a great military leader like Napoleon, Julius Caesar or dare I say Grant.

 

[wausaubob]

You have to remember that the army was trying to locate the Lakota/Cheyenne and then not let them escape. This is why Terry split his forces and let Custer go up the Rosebud while Gibbon went to the mouth of the Bighorn. No one expected the Lakota/Cheyenne to stand and fight against either Gibbon or Custer, but that is exactly what happened. That's why I consider Sitting Bull to be a great "political" leader like Lenin and Crazy Horse to be a great military leader like Napoleon, Julius Caesar or dare I say Grant.

Custer must have thought, there cannot be that many Indians in one encampment. It was practically impossible for such an alliance to form, and it didn't last for long. I wonder if ever looked for himself?

 

[wausaubob]

Custer had the only all cavalry command. His job was to locate the Indians, notify the other commands so that they could converge, and make sure that they didn´t slip away. Gibbon´s parting words to Custer were something like ¨Wait for us, Custer. There are enough Indians for all of us.¨ To which Custer replied ¨No. I won´t.¨ The next time Gibbon saw him, he was dead.

Custer had been successful in those circumstances in the past. But at Little Big Horn his command was outnumbered, and help was not immediately available. The Indians employed good tactics, either by planning or good fortune.

 

[dlofting]

Custer must have thought, there cannot be that many Indians in one encampment. It was practically impossible for such an alliance to form, and it didn't last for long. I wonder if ever looked for himself?

He did but apparently he couldn't see what his Crow scouts saw. Maybe he had vision problems. When he did see the camp from the heights above the LBH he waved his hat, according to observers with Reno in the valley, so he still didn't consider it something the 7th couldn't handle.

 

[dlofting]

I need to add. When before the LBH had any native Americans stood and fought a whole regiment of the US army. They did at the Rosebud but no one, other than Crook and maybe Sheridan if Crook's messages had got that far knew that.

You can pick a number of wars/battles including the most recent in the Ukraine, where one side has been totally surprised that a supposedly inferior foe has got the best of an attacker.

 

[wausaubob]

He did but apparently he couldn't see what his Crow scouts saw. Maybe he had vision problems. When he did see the camp from the heights above the LBH he waved his hat, according to observers with Reno in the valley, so he still didn't consider it something the 7th couldn't handle.

Thanks. I don't know that much about it. Seems like Major Reno was overwhelmed by the unusual circumstances. Custer was a hard officer to restrain. He must have thought Crook's men were closer. It seems odd that the Indians were so well armed and some had obtained the notorious Medicine Guns, the lightweight Winchesters.
Gibbon had to hard broken and may have felt partly responsible when he came upon the scene.