The Cottonclad

[DaveBrt]

Thanks Georgew, I often wondered what happened to Mississippi's plating. It is more often quoted as 1.25", which is what I have always used, but in fact that is a very strange thickness, unless DaveBrt can find a railroad plate to correspond, however these plate were 8 -10" in width and 20ft long. Never be able to prove it now but I suspect they were actually 1.5", making her protection 4.5" We know at least one other CSN vessel which had 4.5" plating - CSS Montgomery.

Sorry, John, but details of flat rail are VERY had to find. What I have seen says 5/8" thick and 4" across, but that was in the 1830's. The 8-10" width makes it unlikely that it is strap iron.

 

[Ara Oko]

Why use cotton bales, and not hemp bales? Once wetted, the hemp bales were impervious to all, apparently, apart from big, heavy shot.
It surprises me that actually functional anti-ballistic material like hemp was not used more.

 

[rebelatsea]

Hi Rebel. I'm curious about why they didn't strip the crew from one of the poorly protected steamers above Mobile and put them aboard the Montgomery. You would have thought that in a shoot-out with Union shore batteries the southern gun crews would have had better protection.

Georgew, from what I can gather there was an extreme shortage of crew, CSS Powell was also never manned, but you make a good point, the Montgomery with 4.5" plate would have made a good fight of it. I am still endeavouring to find out what her ordnance warrant was and who produced it.

 

[rebelatsea]

Sorry, John, but details of flat rail are VERY had to find. What I have seen says 5/8" thick and 4" across, but that was in the 1830's. The 8-10" width makes it unlikely that it is strap iron.

Thanks you Dave, you know more about the Southern roads than me. I know quite a bit about the mine railways in England, some of which used strap rail initially when the early steam locos were introduced, There was nothing as thin as 1.25, 2" x 4 or 6" seems to be normal.

 

[Carronade]

Why use cotton bales, and not hemp bales? Once wetted, the hemp bales were impervious to all, apparently, apart from big, heavy shot.
It surprises me that actually functional anti-ballistic material like hemp was not used more.

Was there much hemp in the Mississippi or the west? I know it was cultivated extensively in the original southern colonies.

 

[Ara Oko]

We

Was there much hemp in the Mississippi or the west? I know it was cultivated extensively in the original southern colonies.

Well, I recall "The battle of the Hemp bales", but can't recall where the battle was. I imagine the military would requisition a great deal of hemp for rope-making etc. and so possibly not as available as cotton as a result. Cotton was probably more saleable, and more useful as a commodity than a resource, though I'm just summising.

 

[DaveBrt]

We

Well, I recall "The battle of the Hemp bales", but can't recall where the battle was. I imagine the military would requisition a great deal of hemp for rope-making etc. and so possibly not as available as cotton as a result. Cotton was probably more saleable, and more useful as a commodity than a resource, though I'm just summising.

Most, if not all, the Confederate rope making was cotton at the Navy Rope Works in Petersburg. They supplied
Army needs as well.

 

[Ara Oko]

Most, if not all, the Confederate rope making was cotton at the Navy Rope Works in Petersburg. They supplied
Army needs as well.

Hmm. Well, I can't think why hemp bales weren't more available. Their worth had been proven in battle.
There must be a reason, but for now it's eluding me as to why Hemp bales weren't siezed for defensive purposes.
Its curious.

 

[georgew]

Georgew, from what I can gather there was an extreme shortage of crew, CSS Powell was also never manned, but you make a good point, the Montgomery with 4.5" plate would have made a good fight of it. I am still endeavouring to find out what her ordnance warrant was and who produced it.

We know that a rump crew manned the Baltic up river. I assume that the crew of the surviving CSN gunboat at Mobile was shifted to the semi-ironed ram. I think that you are right to focus on the ordnance issue regarding the Montgomery. In the Trans-Mississippi it was common for the Army to supply gun crews for the gunboats and it generally worked out fairly well. On the other hand, it might take some work to qualify field artillerymen to handle heavy guns, even if available. I suspect that most of the heavy artillery crews were captured with the fort at the entrance to Mobile Bay. Do we know if the Montgomery had actually done trials under power?

 

[USS ALASKA]

Most of the major hemp producing areas, (Missouri and Kentucky), were unavailable to the Confederacy. Other production locations within the Confederacy were on soon-to-be contested ground.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/2e/1c/65/2e1c65685b2ad68f591a90ccfdefd0fc.jpg

An interesting excerpt from 'A History of the Hemp Industry in Kentucky' by James F. Hopkins can be found here - http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/hemp/history/slavery.htm

Also of interest is 'Kentucky Hemp: A History of the Industry in a Commonwealth of the Upper South, 1775-1942' by Willard Rouse Jillson and 'A Study Of The Past, The Present And The Possibilities Of The Hemp Industry In Kentucky' by Brent Moore

HTHs,
USS ALASKA

 

[Ara Oko]

A very useful graphic this. It's good to see how resources were distributed according to the geographic and climatic nature of the land.

 

[USS ALASKA]

@Ara Oko

A belated Welcome to CWT from the Railroads & Steam Locomotives and The Naval War forums!

https://civilwartalk.com/forums/railroads-steam-locomotives.203/

https://civilwartalk.com/forums/the-naval-war.87/

Cheers and Enjoy!
USS ALASKA

 

[USS ALASKA]

A very useful graphic this. It's good to see how resources were distributed according to the geographic and climatic nature of the land.

Thanks! "Maps be cool!" I've always had a fascination with them...

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[Ptarmigan]

I have seen two pictures of the J A Cotton on the WWW, one showed her with a New Orleans style cowcatcher plated casemate that is designed to protect her machinery only, she was not pierced for any guns just like the dozen other vessels of this type that were converted for war purposes in Louisiana. Mounted on the bow deck are three guns in the open sitting on iron turntables, her pilothouse is mounted high on the Texas deck so she has not been cut down as shown on Johns drawing and seems virtually unaltered from her original steamboat configuration apart from the protection to her machinery. The second drawing shows the vessel in a sunken state but the rings on her fore deck are evident as I recall. I have read that she had some guns on her upper deck but these are not evident in the pictures and I doubt if they were very heavy as all the main guns were mounted on the bow. Whenever she fought, her bow pointed downstream, and according to statements she gave a good account of herself.

 

[rebelatsea]

"Mounted on the bow deck are three guns in the open sitting on iron turntables, her pilothouse is mounted high on the Texas deck so she has not been cut down as shown on Johns drawing and seems virtually unaltered from her original steamboat configuration apart from the protection to her machinery."

Here is J.A.Cotton, drawn with advice and information from our colleagues of the Naval Forum. I don't know where yo you got the cut down bit from.

 

[Ptarmigan]

"Mounted on the bow deck are three guns in the open sitting on iron turntables, her pilothouse is mounted high on the Texas deck so she has not been cut down as shown on Johns drawing and seems virtually unaltered from her original steamboat configuration apart from the protection to her machinery."

Here is J.A.Cotton, drawn with advice and information from our colleagues of the Naval Forum. I don't know where yo you got the cut down bit from.View attachment 331500

Hi John , what I meant by cut down is all the upper deck houses have not been removed as she was in her original steam boat configuration, also the forward deck was unaltered .

 

[Louisiana Jayhawker]

I do not see how one could have three heavy artillery guns (one 32 pounder and two 24 pounder guns) all placed on an open bow deck. She was described as a typical large sidewheeler river steamer. I believe my note from a source put her at 549 tons, 35 feet across, 9 foot hold. Her guns have been described above. How does three gun crews operate on the bow deck at same time as it is too little room and the concussion unbearable from the discharges? I understood she never exposed nothing to the Federal but her bow. I assume she had a bow gun of the 32 pounder but it was casemated behind those railroad iron rails. That explains why she administer such punishment to that Federal steamer that took 54 hits from the COTTON at range of 1,000 yards as they were operating within a protected casemate. At least that is my theory.

 

[Talos]

I do not see how one could have three heavy artillery guns (one 32 pounder and two 24 pounder guns) all placed on an open bow deck. She was described as a typical large sidewheeler river steamer. I believe my note from a source put her at 549 tons, 35 feet across, 9 foot hold. Her guns have been described above. How does three gun crews operate on the bow deck at same time as it is too little room and the concussion unbearable from the discharges? I understood she never exposed nothing to the Federal but her bow. I assume she had a bow gun of the 32 pounder but it was casemated behind those railroad iron rails. That explains why she administer such punishment to that Federal steamer that took 54 hits from the COTTON at range of 1,000 yards as they were operating within a protected casemate. At least that is my theory.

Are they 24-pdr long guns or the much easier to place 24-pdr boat howitzers that were all over the river theater?

 

[Carronade]

I do not see how one could have three heavy artillery guns (one 32 pounder and two 24 pounder guns) all placed on an open bow deck. She was described as a typical large sidewheeler river steamer. I believe my note from a source put her at 549 tons, 35 feet across, 9 foot hold. Her guns have been described above. How does three gun crews operate on the bow deck at same time as it is too little room and the concussion unbearable from the discharges? I understood she never exposed nothing to the Federal but her bow. I assume she had a bow gun of the 32 pounder but it was casemated behind those railroad iron rails. That explains why she administer such punishment to that Federal steamer that took 54 hits from the COTTON at range of 1,000 yards as they were operating within a protected casemate. At least that is my theory.

Are they 24-pdr long guns or the much easier to place 24-pdr boat howitzers that were all over the river theater?

View attachment 331612

There were also a variety of 32-pounders in various lengths and weights from 61 down to 27 cwt - something I learned here, before that I had assumed that 32- or 24-pounders other than carronades were all long guns as in the days of fighting sail.

 

[archieclement]

We

Well, I recall "The battle of the Hemp bales", but can't recall where the battle was. I imagine the military would requisition a great deal of hemp for rope-making etc. and so possibly not as available as cotton as a result. Cotton was probably more saleable, and more useful as a commodity than a resource, though I'm just summising.

Lexington Mo was battle of the hemp bales

Hemp was cultivated pretty extensively in the Missouri river valley of Missouri, and to a lesser extent along the Mississippi River bottoms of Missouri. The growing season was just a little too short to make cotton or tobacco consistently practical, was right for hemp. I know there were what was called rope walks through the region, though its always been my understanding a lot of it went into more making twine then rope, and the twine sent down river to be used baling cotton.