How practical were 2 pound cannons?

[Trooper "D"]

It was Battery E, 1st U.S., armed with M1875 Hotchkiss rifles. Single barrel, and not very many of them.

Oh bless you! Somehow I'm thinking 2 present at that bloodbath. Thank you for your educational response. I really appreciate it. And so quickly done!
Cheers!

 

[Radar14]

Oh bless you! Somehow I'm thinking 2 present at that bloodbath. Thank you for your educational response. I really appreciate it. And so quickly done!
Cheers!

I was away from my PC at the time, and the Indian Wars aren't my specialty, but I have returned to my notes. It appears that three sections of Battery E were detached from Fort Riley, KS, with a total of about 6 M1875 Hotchkiss guns (cal. 1.65 in), 3 officers (CPT Capron, LT Todd, and LT Hayden) & one additional on D.S. (LT Hawthorne, 2nd U.S.), and about 30 enlisted men. From what I can determine, two sections (4 guns) were engaged at Wounded Knee, while the third was engaged elsewhere. So, two sections of two guns each, under Capron and Hawthorne, respectively.

 

[Trooper "D"]

I was away from my PC at the time, and the Indian Wars aren't my specialty, but I have returned to my notes. It appears that three sections of Battery E were detached from Fort Riley, KS, with a total of about 6 M1875 Hotchkiss guns (cal. 1.65 in), 3 officers (CPT Capron, LT Todd, and LT Hayden) & one additional on D.S. (LT Hawthorne, 2nd U.S.), and about 30 enlisted men. From what I can determine, two sections (4 guns) were engaged at Wounded Knee, while the third was engaged elsewhere. So, two sections of two guns each, under Capron and Hawthorne, respectively.

Fantastic! You are really on it. I thank you again
So 2 sections not 2 guns of straight pipers. Those 4 guns did quite a bit of damage that day. 1 point for the smaller guns.
Again...
CHEERS!

 

[Radar14]

Fantastic! You are really on it. I thank you again
So 2 sections not 2 guns of straight pipers. Those 4 guns did quite a bit of damage that day. 1 point for the smaller guns.
Again...
CHEERS!

They couldn't really miss at that range, especially with the rate of fire. My understanding is the battery brought its standard equipment from Fort Riley (4x 3.2-inch breechloading rifles) but they were decidedly not fit for that kind of field service. The Army had been experimenting with the Hotchkiss for years, and it replaced the older M1841 mountain howitzer, but most seasoned officers considered it to be an inferior weapon.

 

[Hawke_]

Is a 3" Ordnance gun a 12 pndr?

More like 10lb, but a rifled gun is playing by somewhat different rules than a smoothbore. Weight of shot is always an advantage, but is more important for shells, shrapnel, and canister than round shot, and rifled guns made best use of round shot thanks to their accuracy (and had no value-add for canister).

 

[Rhea Cole]

Wounded Knee, 7th Cavalry troopers used Hotchkiss small cannon in the useless effusion of blood that ensued. Do you know if it was the revolving gun or they straight pipe ones? Or both even? I had a fellow Trainrobber some years ago insist to the point of threatening people that's the guns of Wounded Knee were revolving multi barrel Hotchkiss guns. I've only seen photos of troopers surrounding a straight pipe Hotchkiss from the period.
You are my 'go to' guy for all things Artillery. I thought you might know.
Thanks in advance and...
Cheers!

I am not aware of multiple barrel Hotchkiss, either. Seeing as how the army casualties were fratricidal, that was a good thing.

 

[Radar14]

I am not aware of multiple barrel Hotchkiss, either. Seeing as how the army casualties were fratricidal, that was a good thing.

There was such a revolving Hotchkiss cannon—five barrels, I believe. The US artillery equipped them for several years, but I'm not aware that they were ever used in action.

 

[Rhea Cole]

There was such a revolving Hotchkiss cannon—five barrels, I believe. The US artillery equipped them for several years, but I'm not aware that they were ever used in action.

I meant present at Wounded Knee.

 

[Radar14]

I meant present at Wounded Knee.

Ah, yes. Then perfectly correct.

 

[Belfoured]

I meant to refer at one point in this thread to a step below the 2 lb gun - the amusettes/"wall guns" used in the 18th century (notably in the AWI by German troops). They were too heavy to be handled by one man and some were actually mounted on a carriage. As used by Hessian units in Howe's British army they were manned by two men - one aiming and firing and one stabilizing the two-legged "tripod" supporting the barrel.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Belfourd, the "ambusette" is a new one for me.

Lord have mercy, the stuff you Rev War types get up to.

Link for photos

Large Caliber Rifle

Large Caliber Rifle

rev.ronv.net

Link

The Amusette: a Flintlock Anti-Materiel Rifle — Nations & Cannons

Therefore I decided to draw these guests into an ambuscade. On 20th, several hours before daybreak, I put an amusette behind a false hedge which I had fashioned from bushes, placing it so that the barn could be pierced easily. I sent Lieutenant Trautvetter with twelve jagers to a small hollow on thi

www.nationsandcannons.com

So, at last an explanation of these extraordinary long barreled muskets in Paris.

 

[Belfoured]

Belfourd, the "ambusette" is a new one for me.

Lord have mercy, the stuff you Rev War types get up to.

View attachment 591948

View attachment 591949
Link for photos

Large Caliber Rifle

Large Caliber Rifle

rev.ronv.net

Link

The Amusette: a Flintlock Anti-Materiel Rifle — Nations & Cannons

Therefore I decided to draw these guests into an ambuscade. On 20th, several hours before daybreak, I put an amusette behind a false hedge which I had fashioned from bushes, placing it so that the barn could be pierced easily. I sent Lieutenant Trautvetter with twelve jagers to a small hollow on thi

www.nationsandcannons.com

View attachment 591950
So, at last an explanation of these extraordinary long barreled muskets in Paris.

One interesting (maybe ) little fact is that the Brits thought the Germans' approach to how these should be used was humorous.

 

[Belfoured]

Belfourd, the "ambusette" is a new one for me.

Lord have mercy, the stuff you Rev War types get up to.

View attachment 591948

View attachment 591949
Link for photos

Large Caliber Rifle

Large Caliber Rifle

rev.ronv.net

Link

The Amusette: a Flintlock Anti-Materiel Rifle — Nations & Cannons

Therefore I decided to draw these guests into an ambuscade. On 20th, several hours before daybreak, I put an amusette behind a false hedge which I had fashioned from bushes, placing it so that the barn could be pierced easily. I sent Lieutenant Trautvetter with twelve jagers to a small hollow on thi

www.nationsandcannons.com

View attachment 591950
So, at last an explanation of these extraordinary long barreled muskets in Paris.

Linked is an image showing the tactical use I'm referring to.

Jager Companie von Roder

While searching for Cooch's Bridge I found this site which is full of interesting photos and so forth. Of special interest was this photo o...

flintlockandtomahawk.blogspot.com

 

[DixieRifles]

It would be a terrible counterbattery gun, but a great anti-personnel weapon. The little 3 pounders and swivel guns of the generation before were fast loading street clearers with a load of grapeshot or a bag of musket balls down the barrel. I think the 2 pounder would be useful for the same purpose.

Agree. The 2.56 inch Williams Gun was likely mounted on a 3 foot diameter wheels and could be manned by 3 men. The OR's described how it was moved forward with the dismounted cavalry at the Battle of Collierville---much like an infantry support weapon.

 

[Trooper "D"]

I meant to refer at one point in this thread to a step below the 2 lb gun - the amusettes/"wall guns" used in the 18th century (notably in the AWI by German troops). They were too heavy to be handled by one man and some were actually mounted on a carriage. As used by Hessian units in Howe's British army they were manned by two men - one aiming and firing and one stabilizing the two-legged "tripod" supporting the barrel.

IMF had some of these for sale a while back.

 

[RetiredCanuck]

One of the key ingredients would be the effective range. With rifles becoming more common among infantry troops, a 2-pounder would have a shorter beaten zone, before the gun crew is within rifle range of opposing forces.

 

[Will Carry]

They still had 2 pounders in World War Two. The were not very effective then either.

 

[Old Soldier]

Now why would an army need mountain guns? Let me think? To use in the mountains? Imagine trying to set out a line of infantry in the mountains. - once you have got the regiment up there. These small guns were VERY useful in country that did not suit soldiers, never nmind vehicular traffic. They were portable, often made to be broken into easily managable parts for the crew and the ammunition was easily carried too.They could shoot ACROSS valleys without too much difficulty AND cause damage too. The shot could be anything - ball, shell, canister and they would also hit the rocky bits and send shards and splinters everywhere. They may not have been spectacular, but would certainly put the enemy off more than a bit. They were also used in jungle terrain too, for the same reason.

BTW - the old 2-pdr illustrated was a very successful anti-tank gun and did quite well until the Nasties up-armored their tanks after 1940. It was effective out to 1,000 yards. It was very successful against fortifications and Italian and Japanese tanks too. The carriage allowed 360 degree traverse and , even though hand-loaded, could fire 20 rounds /minute. It was also adapted to be main turret armament for most early war tanks and armored cars. Its main disadvantage? AP rounds mainly, no HE rounds.

 

[RebelWeber]

Civil War lessons learned from the deployment of 2 pound cannons.

The Williams Gun was fairly effective.

 

[Radar14]

Now why would an army need mountain guns? Let me think? To use in the mountains? Imagine trying to set out a line of infantry in the mountains. - once you have got the regiment up there. These small guns were VERY useful in country that did not suit soldiers, never nmind vehicular traffic. They were portable, often made to be broken into easily managable parts for the crew and the ammunition was easily carried too.They could shoot ACROSS valleys without too much difficulty AND cause damage too. The shot could be anything - ball, shell, canister and they would also hit the rocky bits and send shards and splinters everywhere. They may not have been spectacular, but would certainly put the enemy off more than a bit. They were also used in jungle terrain too, for the same reason.

BTW - the old 2-pdr illustrated was a very successful anti-tank gun and did quite well until the Nasties up-armored their tanks after 1940. It was effective out to 1,000 yards. It was very successful against fortifications and Italian and Japanese tanks too. The carriage allowed 360 degree traverse and , even though hand-loaded, could fire 20 rounds /minute. It was also adapted to be main turret armament for most early war tanks and armored cars. Its main disadvantage? AP rounds mainly, no HE rounds.

Agreed. That was essentially the only point I had to add—the mountain guns traded power for portability, typically broken down across two or three pack animals to accompany infantry or cavalry in the hills and mountains. Small enough that U.S. Grant hauled a tube up a church bell tower in Mexico. Can't do that with a full-size field gun.