Sword id help

[Tom/Idaho]

I have three swords I would like help to identify. I will attempt to post some pictures. I know absolutely nothing about them, nor can I remember where I got them. Only one has any writing and it says, "Ames Sword Co. Chicago, and does not have a date but has extensive etching on both sides with "US" on one side. I am not sure if the scabbards belong to the swords or are there because they fit. Pictures are not the best.
Thanks for any assistance, Tom/Idaho

 

[UCVRelics]

Nice ones. All 3 are post Civil War. The top one with the Eagle head is a Fraternal sword. Mason IOOF etc. The middle one appears to be a foreign sword and the bottom one is a model 1860 staff & field officers sword which were made well into the late 1800's. If its the one marked Ames Chicago then it is post war as all Ames CW period swords were marked AMES MFG CO/CHICOPEE/MASS

 

[Jobe Holiday]

The middle sword is Japanese.
J.

 

[Hussar Yeomanry]

The middle sword is Japanese.
J.

Though one patterned on western styles rather than the traditional katana.

Therefore perhaps from the Meiji era (1868-1912) modernization of the Japanese army?

 

[UCVRelics]

The middle sword is Japanese.

Desu ka?

 

[Larryh86GT]

Nani?

 

[Western Reserve Volunteer]

Aa! Sugoi! That middle one is a Japanese Kyu-gunto, literally the "old pattern sword", used by the Imperial Japanese Army during the Russo-Japanese War. They were issued in both the Meji (1868-1912) & Taisho (1912-1924) eras and hung on in use much longer thanks to arms shortages during the 1930s and WW2. Most now in the West are WW2 bring backs. Later in WW2 and the 1930s the nationalists in Japan would go back to the traditional style of mounting swords, and call it the "Shin-gunto" or "new pattern sword".

They are an interesting but tricky to define lot... they are a fusion of a Western sabre hilt, and a katana style blade. Old sword makers in that era of Japan kept the traditional blade making skills alive during by adapting to the new western style of hilt. The hilt having the chrysanthemum in the center of the grips means you have an Army sword, it would have been an navy one if it was farther forward and the backstrap was straight. The hilts and blades were very variable in this pattern of sword as some early 1880s era examples sometimes used repurposed katana blades so officers could keep on carrying the family sword and meet regulations. Some grips where also made in a two handed style to better correspond with traditional two-handed Japanese techniques of swordsmanship. Yours, with it's single grip hilt with leather grips would be a Type 14 (14th year of Meji, 1882)... I think, I am not an expert. It looks like it has a more Western than Katana style blade, if I had to guess I would say it is probably a sword for an enlisted cavalryman hence the cheaper leather grips and Western blade tip style to make giving point on horseback easier (?)... infantry officers sword probably correspond to the examples I have seen with white ray skin grips and blades more Katana -esque in form, which makes sense as the Katana primarily evolved in the context of being used by a dismounted warrior from earlier swords like the Tachi. It's a great find regardless, I would love to get my hands on one someday!

Does the release button on the scabbard of yours still work or has it gone AWOL? Those break very easily and having an intact and working button on the scabbard would make it rarer. The button is supposed to be kind of like a safety on a gun, you have to depress it to draw your sword. A word of advice too, because the gusto swords (both later kyu and all shin) were mass-produced they are considered weapons rather than cultural artifacts like early katana and so cannot be brought back to Japan as they are illegal there.

 

[mofederal]

I thought I saw a Japanese Mum on the grip earlier, but I wasn't sure. I would guess it was a bring back from WWII. I have seen some strange swords brought back after the war.

 

[Tom/Idaho]

Western Reserve Volunteer,

The right place to get information is from real experts, this site has lots of them.

It seems unfair to me that you have all the knowledge for this sword, and yet you do not have one. I want to fix that!

I have the sword, but no knowledge, can't even remember when/where I got it. I have probably had it about 50 years (or more) leaning in the corner of the shop with the other two.

Other than it being old I don't really have an attachment to it. Can't see leaving it to an uninterested relative who would have it in a pawn shop the same day.

So, I think it is YOU who should have this sword. I think it would be better for the swords future to be with someone who knows of it's past and especially it's historical value to pass on to future generations.
You seem to have that knowledge...I don't.



So.....if you will send me your address I will give it to you. I will need to insure it so I will need some estimate of it's value. I will get it on it's way and it's yours if you want.

Have a nice day, Tom/Idaho

 

[lelliott19]

So, I think it is YOU who should have this sword. I think it would be better for the swords future to be with someone who knows of it's past and especially it's historical value to pass on to future generations.
You seem to have that knowledge...I don't.
I will get it on it's way and it's yours if you want.
Have a nice day, Tom/Idaho

That's such a nice gesture.

@Western Reserve Volunteer quick - get your address to Tom so he can send you the sword! before I beat you to it.

 

[Glen_C]

https://www.japaneseswordindex.com/civilian.htm

 

[Western Reserve Volunteer]

Western Reserve Volunteer,

The right place to get information is from real experts, this site has lots of them.

It seems unfair to me that you have all the knowledge for this sword, and yet you do not have one. I want to fix that!

I have the sword, but no knowledge, can't even remember when/where I got it. I have probably had it about 50 years (or more) leaning in the corner of the shop with the other two.

Other than it being old I don't really have an attachment to it. Can't see leaving it to an uninterested relative who would have it in a pawn shop the same day.

So, I think it is YOU who should have this sword. I think it would be better for the swords future to be with someone who knows of it's past and especially it's historical value to pass on to future generations.
You seem to have that knowledge...I don't.



So.....if you will send me your address I will give it to you. I will need to insure it so I will need some estimate of it's value. I will get it on it's way and it's yours if you want.

Have a nice day, Tom/Idaho

Tom,

Wow! I don't even know what to say... that is such a generous and kind hearted offer. I have sent you an PM with my information... god bless you kind sir!

-Western Reserve Volunteer

 

[Western Reserve Volunteer]

Took the new sword for a test drive! Loving it so much... next step is to figure out how to fix that rattling guard & fit it with a new leather washer between the scabbard and sword, that would have been on the blade. I always try with my artifacts to try and get them back to as close to original as possible... but not much work to be done here!


Obviously as a sharp sword and antique it isn't ever going to be fencing material but I brought it to club to show off and try and practice techniques with a real sabre. Thought you'd like to see what I do on Thursday evenings! Eventually, I intend to buy a repro artillery sabre for full on fencing.

I might also wear this lovely Kyu-Gunto with some of my more Japanese outfits in the future, I enjoy studying Meji & Taisho period people & portraying one would be fun.

As I said in the video: Hontoni Arigato Gozaimasu! Thank you very much!