Sumter Provocation

B Peach has done an honorable job defending his position. It may not be worded and spelled the best but I understand what he's trying to prove.

Peach, thanks for having the guts to take on this debate.

dvrmte

I agree and the thread was getting boring anyway lol... I just wish we had more concrete evidence of the supplies that Sumter was receiving from Charleston, its just to ambiguious about the amounts and dates that he received them.As we have Anderson stating in several OR's that he wasn't getting what he was supposed to.. But, I still think that Lincoln acted honorably and had reason to send the relief ships...Now, could this whole crisis been averted if Anderson said something earlier before all the batteries went up, maybe...As it seems that Lincoln did have plans to give up the fort and hold on to Pickens instead...
 
Wilber,

One has to not only read the Confederate reports in the O.R.s but, the lengthy Union reports in the O.R.s, wading through all the engineering work done, etc.

O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME 1 [S# 1] CHAPTER I.
CORRESPONDENCE AND ORDERS RELATING SPECIALLY TO THE OPERATIONS IN CHARLESTON HARBOR FROM OCTOBER 31, 1860, TO APRIL 14, 1861.
CONFEDERATE CORRESPONDENCE. ETC.,(*)--#1
[WASHINGTON], January 2, 1861.
Hon. M. L. BONHAM, Charleston, S.C.:
Holt succeeds Floyd. It means war. Cut off supplies from Anderson and take Sumter soon as possible.
LOUIS T. WIGFALL.
-----

But, it is evident already back in January 2nd, 1861 -- that starving Anderson at Sumter, of all supplies, which is general but, obvious-- was their intent, already back as far as President Buchanan's Administration.
-----------------------------------------
O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME 1 [S# 1] CHAPTER I.
CORRESPONDENCE AND ORDERS RELATING SPECIALLY TO THE OPERATIONS IN CHARLESTON HARBOR FROM OCTOBER 31, 1860, TO APRIL 14, 1861.
UNION CORRESPONDENCE, ETC.--#1
ORDNANCE OFFICE, WASHINGTON, D. C.,
October 31, 1860.
Hon. J. B. FLOYD,
Secretary of War:
SIR: There is at Fort Sumter, Charleston Harbor, now in course of construction, besides a part of its armament, a considerable quantity of ammunition, &c., and it has been suggested by the Engineer officer in charge of the work that a few small-arms placed in the hands of his workmen for the protection of the Government property there might be a useful precaution. If the measure should, on being communicated, meet with the concurrence of the commanding officer of the troops in the harbor, I recommend that I may be authorized to issue forty muskets to the Engineer officer.
With much respect,
H. K. CRAIG,
Colonel of Ordnance.
-----------------
Not even a military "Company" strength and--workmen at that!
--------------
[Indorsement.]
WAR DEPARTMENT,
October 31, 1860.
Approved:
J. B. FLOYD,
Secretary of War.
-----





M. E. Wolf
 
O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME 1 [S# 1] CHAPTER I.
CORRESPONDENCE AND ORDERS RELATING SPECIALLY TO THE OPERATIONS IN CHARLESTON HARBOR FROM OCTOBER 31, 1860, TO APRIL 14, 1861.
UNION CORRESPONDENCE, ETC.--#1
Fort MOULTRIE, S. C., November 5, 1860.
Col. H. K. CRAIG,
Chief of Ordnance, U. S. Army, Washington, D.C.:
COLONEL: Your communication of 1st instant, with its inclosure, in reference to placing forty muskets in the hands of the Engineer officer in charge of Fort Sumter as a precautionary measure proper to this time of excitement, is received. My views are asked on two, or rather three points:
1st. On that which forms the condition of the Secretary's approval of the issue, namely, that I concur in its expediency;
2d. On the "propriety" of placing the arms in the hands of hired men for the purpose indicated; and,
3d. On the "expediency" of doing so.
To the first I reply that I have already said in effect, on my post return for last month, that while I do not apprehend that any attempt upon the United States works here will receive the countenance of the State or city authority, it is by some thought that a tumultuary force may be incited by the feeling of the time, and invited by the present disordered condition of the works to make such an attempt without it, and that this possibility makes it incumbent on me to provide as far I may against it, and forty additional musketeers would then be desirable.

As to the "propriety" of the issue I see no objection. The arms need not be delivered to the men selected by the Engineer officer till the occasion should actually obtain. The workmen in charge of the property are bound on principles of common law to defend it against purloiners, to say nothing of the 96th Article of War, applicable to all "persons whatsoever receiving pay from the United States."

The "expediency" of the measure is quite another question of less obvious features.

There are one hundred and nine men at Fort Sumter, most of them laborers of foreign nativity, of whom it is prudent to be somewhat suspicious, for I am just informed that on some of them being questioned (as is the wont of the times) on the point of their proclivity in the event of secession, replied to the effect that they were indifferent, and intimated that the largest bribe would determine their action, and they can, you know, discharge themselves of their public obligations at any moment, and thus be free to choose sides.

Now, forty muskets in the hands of the faithful among them might control the rest, but certainly not on a close push from outside. The Engineer officer can, he says, keep the arms beyond the physical possibility of being taken from him by the untrustworthy, and he can cut off all communication peremptorily with citizens. Now, unless some such precaution be taken, this large body of laborers may, in the possible event in question, unrestrainedly deliver up the post and its contents on a bribe or demand. Meanwhile they cannot be removed outside of that isolated island post, which has not a foot of ground beyond the walls of the fort. In this connection I may add that at this post too (Fort Moultrie) we have about fifty laborers of like description with known secession propensities, as they are residents permanently of this quarter.

On the point of expediency, then, I am constrained to say that the only proper precaution--that which has no objection--is to fill these two companies with drilled recruits (say fifty men) at once, and send two companies from Old Point Comfort to occupy respectively Fort Sumter and Castle Pinckney.

I am, colonel, yours respectfully,
JNO. L. GARDNER,
Brevet Colonel, U. S. Army.


Indorsement.]
ORDNANCE OFFICE, November 8, 1860.
Respectfully submitted to the Secretary of War, with the remark that as the issue of forty muskets, approved by him 31st ultimo, was contingent on the approval of Colonel Gardner, it is probable that the issue has not and will not be made without further orders.
H. K. CRAIG,
Colonel of Ordnance.
-----

---------------------------------
Pre - Major Anderson -- this Brevet Colonel was already mentioning forces at work which raised concerns about the safety of the forts. Enough to request some reasonable protection.

I proffer, that this mess about Fort Sumter was long brewing before Anderson took over, and the provocation starts with the outside forces directed towards the forts with the passions of secession. Again, way before Lincoln's Administration.

M. E. Wolf



 
O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME 1 [S# 1] CHAPTER I.
CORRESPONDENCE AND ORDERS RELATING SPECIALLY TO THE OPERATIONS IN CHARLESTON HARBOR FROM OCTOBER 31, 1860, TO APRIL 14, 1861.
UNION CORRESPONDENCE, ETC.--#1
CHARLESTON ARSENAL, S.C.
November 10, 1860.
Col. H. K. CRAIG,
Chief of Ordnance, U. S. A., Washington, D. C. :
SIR: On the 7th instant I received an order from Colonel Gardner, commanding troops in the harbor, to issue to him all of the fixed ammunition for small-arms (percussion caps, primers, &c.) at this arsenal, such a step being advisable, in his estimation, for the better protection of the property in view of the excitement now existing in this city and State. Being allowed no discretion in the matter, his order being peremptory, I proceeded to obey it on the afternoon of the 8th. Captain Seymour having come up from Fort Moultrie, with a detachment of men and schooner, for the purpose of removing the stores, the shipment of them was interfered with by the owner of the wharf until the city authorities could be notified, and there were but three or four cart-loads on board. I considered it best that they should be reconveyed to the magazine until something definite should be determined upon, which was done. Not having heard anything further from Colonel Gardner relative to this matter, I conceive it my duty to report the facts in the case, which I respectfully submit.
Very respectfully, I am, sir, your most obedient servant,
F. C. HUMPHREYS,
Military Storekeeper Ordnance, Commanding.

[Indorsements.]
ORDNANCE OFFICE, November 13, 1860.
Respectfully referred to the Adjutant-General for the information of the Secretary of War, with the remark that I am not aware by what authority Colonel Gardner undertook to give such an order.
H. K. CRAIG,
Colonel of Ordnance.
-----
WASHINGTON, D.C. November 11, 1860.
Col. S. COOPER,
Adjutant-General, Washington City:
SIR: In compliance with instructions from the Secretary of War of the 6th instant, I inspected the fortifications and troops in Charleston Harbor, and have now the honor to report as follows:
FORT MOULTRIE.
This post is garrisoned by Companies E and H First Artillery, and the regimental band is quartered there.


State of the command.
Field and staff.--Bvt. Col. John L. Gardner, lieutenant-colonel First Artillery, commanding; Asst. Surg. Samuel W. Crawford, medical department.

Company officers.--Capt. Miner Knowlton, Company H, absent sick since August 12, 1850; Capt. Abner Doubleday, commanding Company E; Bvt. Capt. Truman Seymour, first lieutenant, commanding Company H; First Lieut. Otis H. Tillinghast, regimental quartermaster, and acting adjutant at regimental headquarters, absent since May 29, 1860; First Lieut. Theodore Talbot, Company H; First Lieut. Jefferson C. Davis, Company E; Second Lieut. Samuel Breck, Company E, on duty at the Military Academy since September 13, 1860; Second Lieut. Norman J. Hall, Company H, acting assistant quartermaster and acting assistant commissary of subsistence since September 1, 1860, and post adjutant.

Enlisted men.
--Band and staff, 9 musicians, 1 hospital steward, 1 ordnance sergeant absent.

Companies E and H, for duty, 36; on extra or daily duty, 13; sick, 4; in arrest or confinement, 11; absent in confinement, 2. Total, 64. Present at inspection, 30 ; artillery drill, 21; infantry drill, 23; comprising all who, in the opinion of the commanding officer, could with propriety and safety be taken from other duties.

The officers--Lieutenant Talbot in delicate health excepted--are in good health, and capable of enduring the fatigues incident to any duty that may be demanded of them. They are sober, intelligent, and active, and appear acquainted with their general duties, perform them with some exceptions punctually and promptly, and all are anxious to give the commanding officer the aid to which he is entitled.
The non-commissioned officers and privates appear intelligent and obedient, but do not move with an alacrity and spirit indicating the existence of a strict discipline.
* * * * * * * * * *


A portion of the work, interior and exterior, is necessarily encumbered by material being used in repairing parapets, beds for guns, and arranging for the defense of the fort. In other respects the police of the post is good.
* * * * * * * * * *

The hospital and storehouses are outside the forts. All are old frame buildings, highly inflammable, and not secured by the presence or watchful eye of a sentinel from the acts of evil-disposed persons. An incendiary could in a few minutes destroy all the supplies and workshops of the command.

Lieutenant Hall states that he has some difficulty in procuring suitable flour and pork in Charleston, sometimes having to return the former, while the latter cannot at times be purchased. He has about two months' supply of provisions for the present command.
* * * * * * * * * *

The ungarded state of the fort invites attack, if such design exists, and -much discretion and prudence are required on the part of the commander to restore the proper security without exciting a community prompt to misconstrue actions of authority. I think this can be effected by proper commander, without checking in the slightest the progress of the engineers in completing the works of defense. Any interference with that labor would probably rouse suspicions and create excitement. All could have been easily arranged several weeks since, when the danger was foreseen by the present commander. Now much delicacy must be practiced. The garrison is weak, and I recommend that a favorable opportunity be taken to fill up the companies with the best-drilled recruits available.
* * * * * * * * * *

The following events, which transpired the day I arrived at Fort Moultrie, I deem proper to report here, as I have orally heretofore, as they relate to an act of unusual importance, tending to indicate the inflammable and impulsive state of the public mind in Charleston--to a great extent characteristic of the feeling manifested throughout the State--and necessity for prudence and judgment on the part of the commanding officer in all transactions which may bear upon the relations of the Federal Government to the State of South Carolina, and of the Army to our citizens. I regard it especially important to refer to them, as Colonel Gardner informed me he should make no report.

The military storekeeper has at the arsenal in the city a large number of arms and quantity of ammunition, which, fearing it might fall into improper hands he desired to secure to the United States, and under counsel from Colonel Gardner he packed them up and held in readiness to be shipped to Fort Moultrie whenever Colonel Gardner should send for them. Availing himself of an approved requisition for paints, lacquers, &c., needed at the post, he sent Captain Seymour to the city for the supply and other articles that the military storekeeper might wish to have stored at the post, and thus secured in case of negro insurrections. The owner of the wharf refused permission to ship them. A crowd collected, and suspecting an attempt on the part of the Government to smuggle (it being late in the evening, or after dark) arms, ammunition, &c., from the city, to be used against it, or to prevent their use by citizens in case of disturbances, would not permit the property to be carried away.

continued
 
FORT SUMTER.
Fort Sumter is not completed, and is now occupied by the Engineers, under the direction of Lieutenant Snyder (Captain Foster being absent), who has employed upon it some hundred and ten men. A portion of the armament is mounted, but for its defense a few regular soldiers, to overawe the workmen and to control them, only would be necessary at present. The lower embrasures are closed, and if the main gate be secured a storming-party would require ladders twenty feet in length to gain admission. No arms are here, and I doubt if they would be serviceable in the hands of workmen, who would take the side of the stronger force present. Unless it should become necessary I think it advisable not to occupy this work so long as the mass of engineer workmen are engaged in it. The completion of those parts essential for the accommodation of a company might be hastened. The magazine contains thirty-nine thousand four hundred pounds of powder. The number of guns on hand is seventy-eight, consisting of 8 and 10 inch columbiads, 8-inch sea-coast howitzers. 42 pounder guns, and 32 and 24-pounders, with carriages, shot, shell, implements, &c.

CASTLE PINCKNEY.
Castle Pinckney commands Charleston, and its armament is complete. Here the powder belonging to the arsenal in the city is stored. A company can be accommodated here, while a small force under an officer would secure it against surprise or even a bold attack of such enemies likely to undertake it. It is under the charge of an ordnance sergeant, who keeps everything in as good order as possible. The quarters and magazine require repairs. Under present circumstances I would not recommend its occupation.
I am, colonel, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
F. J. PORTER,
Assistant Adjutant-General.
-----

CHARLESTON ARSENAL, S.C.,
November 12, 1860.
Col. H. K. CRAIG,
Chief of Ordnance, U. S. A., Washington, D.C.:
SIR: In view of the excitement now existing in this city and State, and the possibility of an insurrectionary movement on the part of the servile population, the governor has tendered, through General Schnierle, of South Carolina Militia, a guard, of a detachment of a lieutenant and twenty men for this post, which has been accepted.

Trusting that this course may meet the approval of the Department, I am, sir, very respectfully, your most obedient servant,
F. C. HUMPHREYS,
Military Storekeeper Ordnance, Commanding.
-----
ADJUTANT-GENERAL'S OFFICE,
Washington, D. C., November 12, 1860.
Maj. ROBERT ANDERSON,
First Artillery, Care of A. A. G., Hdqrs. Army, New York:

SIR: The Secretary of War desires to see you, and directs that you proceed to this city and report to him without unnecessary delay.
I am, sir, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
S. COOPER,
Adjutant-General.
-----------------------------------------------------------

First we see any mention of Major Anderson. Yet, still 1860 -- Buchanan's Administration.

No mention of Lincoln or elections.


Already having difficulty in gaining decent food stores.

Clearly -- unrest was manifested long before Anderson and Lincoln was made the 'excuse.'


Just my opinions based on the O.R.s to this point in time.


M. E. Wolf
 
Anderson knew that by asking for supplies a war would start, he waited to the last minute to say that he was short on rations.

No he stated that he was short of ration when he made his first Report in Dec, as he could not procure any to supplemnet what he brought with him.

.Thats why it took the Lincoln administration by surprise when he stated that he couldn't hold out unless relieved,

Except he did not write that.

because as you stated he didn't ask for them before that...Also, another reason that some in the North had second thoughts about Anderson's loyalty, as he didnt ask for supplies when it would have been easy to bring them in...

He had not yet been ordered to ask for supplies should he require them.
 
You seemed come into this thread trying to prove that Lincoln had no reason to send the ships and that the food shortage was only a smoke screen as a reason to start the war; and that the food shortage was only caused by the Confederate reaction to Lincolns actions..I might not agree with your conclusions or how some were derived but it is a very interesting aspect of the battle to study so thank you for bringing it up. My apologizes if I was out of line with some comments....

Close to my thinking/posting on it, he had every right, from his pov, to send the fleet and fight its way into Sumpter. How he could make sure public opinion supported such a course of action was his principle problem, and he settled on bringing food to starving men as that means of securing public support. The evidence is that they were not starving, and increased reduction of supplies only exited because of the relief expedition.

In return i apoligise for any offense given to you in my posts.
 
Your claim that Anderson didn't want the expedition sent because he had enough food..

Which post do you refer to where i claim this?.

In general, to that, however, he was under orders to request supplies should he require them, he asked should he go on half rations, and got no reply, so never asked for supplies. He advised against relief forces on 3 seperate months, and reported that he was satisfied with the current supply situation in March.
 
Well it was a "civil war" Ba dom Bom

Hey my name is Will and Im here all week lol


Civil wars are when two factions seek to control the whole state, secessions are when a section/faction seeks to remove itself from the state.

Outside USA its refered tp as the 2nd Secession war, or WBTS, in the USA its WBTS CW or WoTR.
 
I just wish we had more concrete evidence of the supplies that Sumter was receiving from Charleston, its just to ambiguious about the amounts and dates that he received them..

Not really, we know enough, ive posted the timeline and supplies on hand, it in general agrees with Scotts maths on the same information. We know Anderson wife sent her slave to Sumpter from NY, once she heard Anderson had moved there, Peter Hart, who Anderson used as his trusted caterer for the garrison in fresh provisions in the Charleston market is one further example of how we know that while SC allowed provisoning from Charleston, there was no starvation.


I just wish we had more concrete evidence of the supplies that Sumter was receiving from Charleston, its just to ambiguious about the amounts and dates that he received them..

Not really, we know enough. We know Anderson wife sent her slave to Sumpter from NY, once she heard Anderson had moved there, Peter Hart, who Anderson used as his trusted caterer for the garrison in fresh provisions in the Charleston market is one further example of how we know that while SC allowed provisoning from Charleston, there was no starvation.

When Scott did not know of Anderson access to market and ressuply from contractor he advised the following.
Winfield Scott to Abraham Lincoln, Tuesday, March 12, 1861
(Report on Fort Sumter)From Winfield Scott to Abraham Lincoln, March 12, 1861The President has done me the honor to propose certain military questions, concerning FortSumter to which he desires replies."1st." To what point of time can Major Anderson maintain his position at Fort Sumter withoutfresh supplies or reinforcements?Answer. In respect to subsistence he has bread, flour, and rice for about 26 days, and salt meat(pork) for about forty eight days. Without additional supplies of provisions he may hold out someforty days without much suffering from hunger.The besiegers are understood to be about 3,500 men, now somewhat disciplined, and they havefour powerful batteries on land, and one floating battery, all mounting guns and mortars of largecalibre and of the best patterns, bearing on Fort Sumter. Supposing Major Anderson not to bereinforced and the means of the assailants to be skilfully and vigorously employed -- Fort Sumter being defended by less than 100 men, including common laborers and musicians -- it might betaken, at any time, by a single assault, and easily, if previously harassed, perseveringly, for manydays and nights; the assailants having the ability (by the force of numbers) of converting one outof every three or four of those demonstrations, into a real attack."2d." Can you, with all the means now in your control, supply or reinforce Fort Sumter withinthe period you specify as the time, within which Major Anderson may hold out without freshsupplies?"Answer. No, not within many months; But not to speak of October or November, when theproposition was first made, and repeated, in writing, the third time, December 30th -- it wouldhave been easy to reinforce Fort Sumter, with war vessels, down to about the 12th of February. Inthis long delay, twice that time, Fort Moultrie has been re-armed and greatly strengthened, inevery way, and many powerful new land batteries (besides rafts) have been constructed. Hulkshave also been sunk in the principal channel, so as to render access to Fort Sumter, from the sea,impractical, without first carrying all the batteries of the secessionists. The difficulty of reinforcing has thus, by delay, been increased 1[0] or 12 fold. First, the late President refused toallow any attempt to be made, because he was holding negotiations with South CarolinaCommissioners. Afterwards, Secretary Holt and myself endeavored to obtain a ship of war for the purpose; but failing in this we were obliged to employ the steamer Star of the West. Thatvessel, but for the hesitation of the commander, might then have landed, it is generally believed,men and subsistence. That attempt having failed, I next, before the late Cabinet, submitted,orally, either that succor be sent by ships of war, fighting their way to the Fort, or, that Major


Once Scott was informed of the contractors suppling Sumpter again, and accss to local market for the command, And anderson satisifaction of the supply situation( March 17),he revised his estimae for POTUS on this issue.




Memorandum undated from General Scott to Lincoln, received by Lincoln, March 28.

It seems from the opinions of the Army officers who expressed themselves on the subject -- all within Fort Sumter, together with General Scott and Totten -- that it is perhaps now impossible to succor that fort substantially, if at all, without capturing, by means of a large expedition of ships of war and troops, all the opposing batteries of South Carolina. In the mean time -- six or ten months -- Major Anderson would almost certainly have been obliged to surrender under assault or the approach of starvation ... An abandonment of the fort in a few weeks, sooner or later, would appear, therefore, to be a sure necessity, and if so, the sooner the more graceful on the part of the Government.

It is doubtful, however, according to recent information from the South, whether the voluntary evacuation of Fort Sumter alone would have a decisive effect upon the states now wavering between adherence to the Union and secession. It is known, indeed, that it would be charged to necessity, and the holding of Fort Pickens would be adduced in support of that view. Our Southern friends, however, are clear that the evacuation of both the forts would instantly soothe and give confidence to the eight remaining slaveholding States, and render their cordial adherence to this Union perpetual ... The giving up of Forts Sumter and Pickens may be best justified by the hope that we should thereby recover the State to which they geographically belong by the liberality of the act, besides retaining the eight doubtful States.

Now in addition to the maths, i have given you a fairly large the textual record, Anything else you need?.
 
Note to you, read my apology. It was not to you. It was to the membership at large. While you are certainly a member, you deserve no apology from me and you deserve no change in my opinion of you. As to the tone click on your own name and read your own posts to people, apparently any who disagree w/ you are idiots.
Note to you, after you apoligesied, you continued with the personal attacks rather than the content, you set then tone, i meerly followed it.


Its both.

Ft Sumter, though it might have been good irony if it had been renamed Ft Sumner. It's Ft Sumter in Charleston and it's Ft Sumter in the history books. Much like your repated purposeful misspelling of other things you're merely plying a juvenille insult.
 
Funny that... when R.E. Lee considered it Civil War. As taught inthe old Soviet Union it was referred to as the American Civil War... which is certainly outside the USA. Period references are typically to the War of Rebellion or Civil War.

If Davis and friends could have figured out how to take the whole of the US and burn it to the ground they would have.
Civil wars are when two factions seek to control the whole state, secessions are when a section/faction seeks to remove itself from the state.

Outside USA its refered tp as the 2nd Secession war, or WBTS, in the USA its WBTS CW or WoTR.
 
No, he hasn't. He might take a lesson from you but he won't. Readability and concise text are a big part of a decent argument. You shouldn't have to scratch your head and ask yourself what the point is. We got more in 4 posts from the Col than in multiple pages from Mr Peach. He has claimed 25 years military service, which at the very least should present the training for giving concise and well worded responses.

B Peach has done an honorable job defending his position. It may not be worded and spelled the best but I understand what he's trying to prove.

Peach, thanks for having the guts to take on this debate.

dvrmte
 
Well then, What is it you claim?
Which post do you refer to where i claim this?.

In general, to that, however, he was under orders to request supplies should he require them, he asked should he go on half rations, and got no reply, so never asked for supplies. He advised against relief forces on 3 seperate months, and reported that he was satisfied with the current supply situation in March.
 
Note to you, read my apology. It was not to you. It was to the membership at large.

I am a member, you apoligised to all members. You made no exception nor corrected my aceptence of your apolgy at the time given and acepted.

While you are certainly a member, you deserve no apology from me and you deserve no change in my opinion of you. As to the tone click on your own name and read your own posts to people, apparently any who disagree w/ you are idiots.


Weasle out of an apolgy if you like, thats just more trolling from you.
Its *why* people support their argument against anything i post that i reply, not the person themselves. I have no intrest of peoples opinion of me, i have an intrest in their arguments and how they support them.

Ft Sumter, though it might have been good irony if it had been renamed Ft Sumner. It's Ft Sumter in Charleston and it's Ft Sumter in the history books. Much like your repated purposeful misspelling of other things you're merely plying a juvenille insult.

No, he had the Fort Sumpter named after him in SC and the county of Sumpter in Florida, as per link already provided, its Sumpter in the history of it in the library of congress work on it.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/History-Fal...0801/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1311256799&sr=8-3

NYT knows how to spell, they use Sumpter, link already given.

heres standard required reading history text book on it.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/History-Fal...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1311260611&sr=1-1
Here are further works from the time that refer to it as Sumpter.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/alphabetica...RO/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1311256799&sr=8-13

Heres a Mueseum calling the photos of Fort Sumpter.
http://www.mpm.edu/collections/artifacts/photography/matteson/browse/?c=0&k=&t=1&p=19

Heres the library of congres on Granthttp://www.loc.gov/shop/index.php?action=cCatalog.showItem&cid=14&scid=235&iid=3296

, ten days after the fall of Fort Sumpter, Captain Grant arrived in Springfield Illinois with a company of men he had raised. The governor appointed him a colonel and by August he was a brigadier general of the volunteers.
Here is Lamon * asking to visit Sumpter.http://www.mrlincolnandfriends.org/inside.asp?pageID=128&subjectID=8

Mr. Lamon, who strongly desired to visit Fort Sumpter [sic] and was provided with a Post office appointment -- presented his card to Gov. [Francis W.] Pickens on Monday morning and was kindly & respectfully received.

* others Col. Grayson formerly Collector and in Congress -- George S. Bryan -- James M. Gray and a very few others stood out in favor of Union until within three weeks, but they have surrendered and at this day Fort Sumpter is the only spot where the U. States have jurisdiction and James L. Petigru the only citizen loyal to the Nation.

Here is Lincoln calling it Sumpter, as he did throught his life,"When Anderson goes out of Fort Sumpter I shall have to go out of the White House." in another historical bio of him.http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Life_...ttle_Blue_Book_Ten_Cent_Pocket_Series_No._324)

Now lets further remind you of you inability to spell words of places, and understand events occuring at them.

You made an incorroct cit from the OR, in post 392, the only cite you provided on rations, it appears no where in the OR, you suggest you got the page wrong, you did not, you inveted an amount, you went to claim ina later post "I found another reference on pg 273 of First Blood by Swanberg which is darned near verbatim to my original post."

In fact the eleven codfish is the title of chapter XXIV, and is the only time the phrase is in the book, and refers to the 11 CS states.http://books.google.com/books?id=Akt3AAAAMAAJ&q=eleven+codfish#search_anchor On;line version here.

Twice you made a false representaion of facts, troll seems insufiecent a term for you, i think D Irving suits you better.

I presented three texts, all of which disagree w/ you.

You presented one cite that does not exist in that post 392, later you gave a page number and content that also does not exist in your second cite in a seperate post.

You cant even add up 1 cite and 1 cite, and get 2 cites provided, you instead claim it is three, no wonder you avoid using maths in any reply.



Christ no bloody wonder Izwandala was such a disaster for the British Army if they had a supply git saying "Sergeant, you can't have ammunition from my company the spreadsheet says you have plenty in your own..."

You mean isandlwana http://www.britishbattles.com/zulu-war/isandlwana.htm

You refer to Sargeant whose posistion precludes them from acting as munition runners, that role was performed by bandsman/drummers.

You refer to a single know incident of Quartermaster Bloomfield of the 2/24th, Coy G, not issueing munitions to other compaines, his company never run out of munitions,( Zulus could close on their Square till darkness fell and they could get at the square) and so causing a disaster for other companies who were posisted 500 yards further from the 2/24 QM supply point and chose to go to the nearest rather than the required by regulations QM supply point, it was the distance the runners had to make 20 mins each way, and waiting at the wrong QM post that caused the line to retract toa serviciable distnce, or rather the problem was an over extended frontage could not be supplied in time, over 30,000 rounds have been excavated from the battlfield, 10,000 more than a decade ago and over a wider front line that shows the command went further out, fought there, fell back to a shorter perimeter, and was finaly overun there, with Some squares withdrawing for a mile and holding out till nightfall, where their bodies were recovered.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/previous_seasons/case_zulu/interview.html UK leading authority on the battle.

Book of the same.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Zulu-Rising...1851/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1311264458&sr=8-1

900 UK forces expended a min of 33 rounds each, roughly the same as ANV and Aop averaged at Gettysburg, ( 40 per man per day), killing c1000 zulus, teh same rate as theCS and US killed each other at.

http://www.military-times.co.uk/articles/3-popular-myths-of-isandlwana-1879-zulu-war.htm

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku....r-British-Martini-Henry-Ammunition-Box?page=1

Well then, What is it you claim?

You cant count beyond 2. You have not read nor understood the post your reply is too. Your trolling, again.

No, he hasn't. He might take a lesson from you but he won't. Readability and concise text are a big part of a decent argument.

Given your posts lack of content you should take your own advice, and not tell others what there opinions should be.
 
Sumter was the issue chosen by the Davis gov't, to force the National gov't to either relinquished all claims of Constitutional authority to the seceding states, or be attacked.
This was in line with the historical evidence of SC and csa's consistent policy of legitimizing their illegally obtained gains, solely by the illegal acts of rebellion and war.
 
Not really, we know enough, ive posted the timeline and supplies on hand, it in general agrees with Scotts maths on the same information. We know Anderson wife sent her slave to Sumpter from NY, once she heard Anderson had moved there, Peter Hart, who Anderson used as his trusted caterer for the garrison in fresh provisions in the Charleston market is one further example of how we know that while SC allowed provisoning from Charleston, there was no starvation.




Not really, we know enough. We know Anderson wife sent her slave to Sumpter from NY, once she heard Anderson had moved there, Peter Hart, who Anderson used as his trusted caterer for the garrison in fresh provisions in the Charleston market is one further example of how we know that while SC allowed provisoning from Charleston, there was no starvation.

When Scott did not know of Anderson access to market and ressuply from contractor he advised the following.
Winfield Scott to Abraham Lincoln, Tuesday, March 12, 1861
(Report on Fort Sumter)From Winfield Scott to Abraham Lincoln, March 12, 1861The President has done me the honor to propose certain military questions, concerning FortSumter to which he desires replies."1st." To what point of time can Major Anderson maintain his position at Fort Sumter withoutfresh supplies or reinforcements?Answer. In respect to subsistence he has bread, flour, and rice for about 26 days, and salt meat(pork) for about forty eight days. Without additional supplies of provisions he may hold out someforty days without much suffering from hunger.The besiegers are understood to be about 3,500 men, now somewhat disciplined, and they havefour powerful batteries on land, and one floating battery, all mounting guns and mortars of largecalibre and of the best patterns, bearing on Fort Sumter. Supposing Major Anderson not to bereinforced and the means of the assailants to be skilfully and vigorously employed -- Fort Sumter being defended by less than 100 men, including common laborers and musicians -- it might betaken, at any time, by a single assault, and easily, if previously harassed, perseveringly, for manydays and nights; the assailants having the ability (by the force of numbers) of converting one outof every three or four of those demonstrations, into a real attack."2d." Can you, with all the means now in your control, supply or reinforce Fort Sumter withinthe period you specify as the time, within which Major Anderson may hold out without freshsupplies?"Answer. No, not within many months; But not to speak of October or November, when theproposition was first made, and repeated, in writing, the third time, December 30th -- it wouldhave been easy to reinforce Fort Sumter, with war vessels, down to about the 12th of February. Inthis long delay, twice that time, Fort Moultrie has been re-armed and greatly strengthened, inevery way, and many powerful new land batteries (besides rafts) have been constructed. Hulkshave also been sunk in the principal channel, so as to render access to Fort Sumter, from the sea,impractical, without first carrying all the batteries of the secessionists. The difficulty of reinforcing has thus, by delay, been increased 1[0] or 12 fold. First, the late President refused toallow any attempt to be made, because he was holding negotiations with South CarolinaCommissioners. Afterwards, Secretary Holt and myself endeavored to obtain a ship of war for the purpose; but failing in this we were obliged to employ the steamer Star of the West. Thatvessel, but for the hesitation of the commander, might then have landed, it is generally believed,men and subsistence. That attempt having failed, I next, before the late Cabinet, submitted,orally, either that succor be sent by ships of war, fighting their way to the Fort, or, that Major


Once Scott was informed of the contractors suppling Sumpter again, and accss to local market for the command, And anderson satisifaction of the supply situation( March 17),he revised his estimae for POTUS on this issue.




Memorandum undated from General Scott to Lincoln, received by Lincoln, March 28.

It seems from the opinions of the Army officers who expressed themselves on the subject -- all within Fort Sumter, together with General Scott and Totten -- that it is perhaps now impossible to succor that fort substantially, if at all, without capturing, by means of a large expedition of ships of war and troops, all the opposing batteries of South Carolina. In the mean time -- six or ten months -- Major Anderson would almost certainly have been obliged to surrender under assault or the approach of starvation ... An abandonment of the fort in a few weeks, sooner or later, would appear, therefore, to be a sure necessity, and if so, the sooner the more graceful on the part of the Government.

It is doubtful, however, according to recent information from the South, whether the voluntary evacuation of Fort Sumter alone would have a decisive effect upon the states now wavering between adherence to the Union and secession. It is known, indeed, that it would be charged to necessity, and the holding of Fort Pickens would be adduced in support of that view. Our Southern friends, however, are clear that the evacuation of both the forts would instantly soothe and give confidence to the eight remaining slaveholding States, and render their cordial adherence to this Union perpetual ... The giving up of Forts Sumter and Pickens may be best justified by the hope that we should thereby recover the State to which they geographically belong by the liberality of the act, besides retaining the eight doubtful States.

Now in addition to the maths, i have given you a fairly large the textual record, Anything else you need?.

As for Anderson's slave in what month was she sent down there? Thats a rather important part that you didn't list, they also had people from Charleston bringing the officers delicacies, but that doesn't mean in general they had enough food for all the men.. That just means its good to be an officer. So once again could you summarize what your position is... Is it that Anderson had enough supplies to last past April, and I'm not just talking about salt pork? And when you say full rations are you just counting the calories from the pork,or do you mean a variety of goods... Or is it that Anderson when the expedition was being outfitted he had enough food but would run out as he stated in mid-April?
 
Peter Hart, ( sorry white servant not slave) Left NY on Jan 3rd with Mrs Anderson, arrived on Sun 6th Jan. she met with Gov Pickens who declined to allow Hart to increase the Garrison by another man. Mrs. Anderson sent a message to the governor, saying, "I shall take Hart with me, with or without a pass." and he relented and at 10 A.M. on Jan. 6, accompanied by a few personal friends, Mrs. Anderson and Peter Hart went in a boat to Fort Sumter. Its hart who replaces the Flag when its shot off during the bombardment.

Why is it important?.

I have already given my position many times, and sadly the rest of your post questions you can find the answers have already been given.
 

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