Another OR expands on Scotts thoughts....
General Scott, in his reply to the question addressed to him by the President, on the 12th instant, what amount of means and of what description, in addition to those already at command, it would require to supply and re-enforce the fort, says: I should need a fleet of war vessels and transports which, in the scattered disposition of the Navy [as understood], could not be collected in less than four months; 5,000 additional regular troops and 20,000 volunteers; that is, a force sufficient to take all the batteries, both in the harbor [including Fort Moultrie], as well as in the approach or outer bay. To raise, organize, and discipline such an army [not to speak of necessary legislation by Congress, not now in session] would require from six to eight months. As a practical military question the time for succoring Fort Sumter with any means at hand had passed away nearly a month ago. Since then a surrender assault or from starvation has been merely a question of time.
This states that the force needed to lift the seige would take six to eights months to create and by that time the fort would have been captured by assault or the garrison starved out.. I dont see anything that shows Scott revising his estimate on the amount of food the fort contains...
http://ehistory.osu.edu/osu/sources/...ntent=001/0197
Yes i started with that on post 242, and was Scott`s initial answer, 6-8 months,m which he later increases in time to 6-10. Ressupply as an option ended a month ago. Reusuply now is not an option.
Its these not options from Scott as well as the projected end of supply that im intrested in.
FORT SUMTER, S. C., March 17, 1861.
Hon. D. F. JAMISON, Executive Office, Department of War:
SIR: I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of your communication of the 15th instant in reply to mine of the 13th to his excellency the governor.
I hasten to ask you to refer to my letter to his excellency, and you will see that I did not solicit any modification of his original permission about receiving supplies of fresh meat and vegetables. I am satisfied with the existing arrangement, and only called attention to a reported interference of it. I thank you for your promise in reference to the property of Captain Foster.
This refers to Anderson from then on being in reciept of full supply from the contractor who supplied his command when at Moultrie. Anderson supply consumption now halves from when he had no such acess to SC markets and contractor. DC is aware of this.
What Wilber and i dispute is what it all means, we have a QM report for a number of time periods, anda know number in Sumpter, so we can show how much supply is present and consumed, the effect the ability to draw from SC/Contractor had on supply leveles, and the effect it had when removed in April. Since gaining this supply increase anderson supply problems go away, but only while those circumstances exist, its why those circumstances change that is also in dispute.
One view is that they were starving and had to have the supplies.
One view is that they were not and the relief force being sent caused the supplies to be witheld which caused the lack of supplies in April.
The garrison transferred from Fort Moultrie consisted of seven officers, seventy-six enlisted men, and forty-five women and children. There were three officers, one enlisted man, two hundred and five laborers, and one woman at Fort Sumter. One hundred and fifty of the laborers were discharged within a few days, and the women and children were shipped to New York early in February, 1861, leaving at this date a garrison consisting of ten officers, seventy-five enlisted men, and fifty-five laborers. There has been and is an ample supply of water and a sufficiency of fuel, principally in the shape of lumber, flooring, and gun carriages.
Yes we have that already, Wilber thinks they are still there in March and April, and if so that means the SC supply was larger, not smaller than i gave and is counter intuative to his claim.
Where in that post was anything showing Anderson was satistified with the amount of supplies that he was receiving?
That would be Anderson report gavin it in post 242, 259, linked to
http://www.scribd.com/doc/47900588/The-Starvation-Crisis-at-Fort-Sumter-in-1861-Part-1 when a similar question was asked.
I covered this earlier here is a quick re fresh
On January 24, 1861, Major Anderson had his grocery list made and forwarded toMr. Daniel McSweeney. FORT SUMTER, January 24, 1861.
Mr. Daniel McSweeney:
SIR:
I am directed by Major Anderson, commanding this post, toascertain whether you will furnish such fresh beef and vegetables asmay be required here; the beef upon the terms of the contract underwhich you supplied Fort Moultrie; the vegetables to be purchased byyou for us at fair market prices;
the whole to be delivered as hitherto, fourtimes in ten days, at some wharf in Charleston, for transportation to FortJohnson, where it will be received by this garrison. This arrangement, whichhas been approved by the governor of South Carolina, it is desired shall gointo effect immediately, and if you consent to it, you can send 184 pounds of fresh beef at a time, at such hour and wherever Quartermaster-General Hatch(120 Meeting street) may advise you. Of the vegetables you will be furtherdirected. Please ackuowledge the receipt of this as soon as possible, in order,if necessary, that other arrangements may be made. Respectfully, your obedient servant,T. SEYMOUR, Captain, U. S. Army. [O.R. Ser 1, Vol 1, Ch 1, p. 154]
This was the items Anderson refers to as being satisfied with on March 17.
B Peach,
While I sincerely appreciate all the time and effort you have expended to show your side of the recent debate, I must confess, you have not convinced me of the fact that the resupply effort in any way represents a pure provocation by Lincoln to get Confederate forces to fire the first shot of the Civil War.
But thank you for an interesting presentation.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
Your welcome. Of course lincolns motives are very difficlt to acertain, he played Douglas nicly in debate to get to be POTUS, i believe he played an equally shrewd game here, but while it got him what he wanted from it, it also gave SC what it wanted, and both got more than they ever wanted asa result.
http://americancivilwar.com/authors...ln-Instigated-War/The-Buried-Fact-Record.html
Also there is Lincolns own comment on his actions.
According to the Browning's diary, ( Lincolns Sec) Lincoln explained that "he himself conceived the idea, and proposed sending supplies, without an attempt to reinforce giving notice of the fact to Gov Pickens of S. C. The plan succeeded. They attacked Sumter-- it fell, and thus, did more service than it otherwise could."
Thats the link you pasted it does not work, why did you list a different one in your response.. But anyway I played around with the address and found where it went, its a semi-wikipedia summary of the battle that refers to another secondary source...The Swanberg book does also state 43, ( so I guess by writing this you realize that you were wrong by saying Shane was making up his information) but it also doesnt state the OR..The book your secondary source uses as a reference also doesn't show a primary source...So until someone can show me some sort of documentation I will stick with the figure that was reported by then men that were there...
I had provided extracts from this starting from my first post in the thread, he asked for it again, and i linked to it
http://www.scribd.com/doc/47900588/The-Starvation-Crisis-at-Fort-Sumter-in-1861-Part-1 he asked for it again and i copy pasted it from that post to here, there to here, missing of the end of the HTML link, thats why it did not work, as posting the same thing gets mopre likly to increase a copy paste error.
In March he claims my maths is wrong from 43 civilians, it should be 55. All are on full rations in March. Full rations comsumption is derived from prior months consumption of Sumpter stock only, as no SC provisions allowed. So we hav ethe prior months consumption asa known.
If i used 55 civilians instead of 43 in March, when they are in reciept of SC supplies,the number of mouths consuming the same rations held in Sumpter increases, as it is the same number being divided by a now larger number. This will produce an increase in consumptionm from SC to bring consumption back to normal ration, as the now increased consumption from 43 to 55 increases the shortfall that can only have come from SC.
That kind of maths increases the amount that was brought in from sumpter, to meet full rations, not decrease it.
But hey ho, lets use 55 as you dont like the number who surrender, btw that Crawford who it cities in the work, is the Crawford who was Surgeon General at Sumpter and gives the number who was present as being 43 and is why its in all the books on the subject not 55.
There are also OR's and diary accounts of Anderson and others complaining that the merchants weren't fulfilling their side of the bargain by selling food to the fort.I haven't seen anything which shows ANderson being pleased with the amount of food he was getting in the mid march time frame.
Depends which time of year, in those days there was periods when all had problems finding enough food, second the CS new market economy allowed merchnats a boom time in Charelston that sucked out some items, and there was the rabid to cool treatmnet of yankees by the population in general.
WAR DEPARTMENT, Washington, D. C., April 4, 1861.
Major ROBERT ANDERSON, U. S. Army:
SIR: Your letter of the 1st instant occasions some anxiety to the President.
On the information of Captain Fox he had supposed you could hold out till the 15th instant without any great inconvenience; and had prepared an expedition to relieve you before that period.
Hoping still that you will be able to sustain yourself till the 11th or 12th instant, the expedition will go forward; and, finding your flag flying, will attempt to provision you, and, in case the effort is resisted, will endeavor also to re-enforce you.
You will therefore hold out, if possible, till the arrival of the expedition.
It is not, however, the intention of the President to subject your command to any danger or hardship beyond what, in your judgment, would be usual in military life; and he has entire confidence that you will act as becomes a patriot and soldier, under all circumstances.
Whenever, if at all, in your judgment, to save yourself and command, a capitulation becomes a necessity, you are authorized to make it.
Respectfully,
SIMON CAMERON, Secretary of War.
http://ehistory.osu.edu/osu/sources/...ntent=001/0235
This doesn't seem to me to be a letter sent by an administration sending a fleet behind a smoke screen of trying to bring supplies to men..It appears that the administration was genuinely taken by surprise by Anderson's April 1 letter..Again, these communiques about food shortages are all dated before April 7, when the CSA officially shut the door on supplies, though it would appear that this pipeline was already closed...
Supplies were not all they sending.
April 4, 1861 Lieutenant General Scott sent the following: April 4, 1861 To: Lieut. Col. H.L. Scott, Aide de Camp This will be handed to you by Captain G.V. Fox, an ex-officer of the Navy.He is charged by authority here, with the command of an expedition (undercover of certain ships of war) whose object is, to reinforce Fort Sumter. To embark with Captain Fox, you will cause a detachment of recruits, sayabout 200, to be immediately organized at Fort Columbus, with competentnumber of officers, arms, ammunition, and subsistence, with othernecessaries needed for the augmented garrison at Fort Sumter. Signed: Winfield Scott [O.R. Series 1, Volume 1, Chapter 1, page 236.
WAR DEPARTMENT,
Washington, April 4, 1861.
Capt. G. V. Fox, Washington, D. C.:
SIR: It having been decided to succor Fort Sumter you have been selected for this important duty. Accordingly you will take charge of the transports in New York having the troops and supplies on board to the entrance of Charleston Harbor, and endeavor, in the first instance, to deliver the subsistence. If you are opposed in this you are directed {p.236} to report the fact to the senior naval officer of the harbor, who will be instructed by the Secretary of the Navy to use his entire force to open a passage, when you will, if possible, effect an entrance and place both troops and supplies in Fort Sumter.
I am, sir, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
SIMON CAMERON,
Secretary of War