Spencer question

[kotkinjs1]

Hi all,
I'm looking to get my first Spencer carbine. There seem to be a lot of variations with this particular carbine model....extractors, cut offs, lengths, etc. The one I'm looking at has an 1860 patent date on the receiver and a 74XX serial number that matches on the receiver and under the barrel. It doesn't have a sling swivel under the barrel band (I'd read somewhere that they did?) and the barrel length is reported as 20 inches versus 22"...but I also hear there were variations in carbine lengths let alone cut down rifles? I think it has the 6-groove rifling. From what I can see of this particular carbine it's only missing the saddle ring and the ladder on the rear sight. I don't think it's got that cut off mechanism that should be visible in front of the trigger?

So can anyone shed some light on this? Does it seem to be correct or a cut down rifle? Otherwise legit? Thanks!

 

[UCVRelics]

Its a model 1865 Spencer Carbine which had a 20" barrel. The model 1860 had a 22" barrel. Only the Spencer rifle had a sling swivel under the barrel. If you will post or PM me the entire serial # I will look and see if it shows up on the SRS.

 

[kotkinjs1]

7492

 

[UCVRelics]

It is not listed in the SRS. Their were 34,000 model 1865 produced and the serial # on them started at 1 which means their is a model 1860 with the same # as your model 1865.

 

[kotkinjs1]

It is not listed in the SRS. Their were 34,000 model 1865 produced and the serial # on them started at 1 which means their is a model 1860 with the same # as your model 1865.

Didn't the model 1865 have that patent date on the receiver instead of 1860?

 

[UCVRelics]

the barrel length is reported as 20 inches versus 22"

All of the marking of the one you are looking at are a model 1860 except the barrel length. I would have who ever is selling it remeasure the barrel and send you photos of the butt plate. If it has an ammo tube plate like the one below its an 1860. If it has one like the one below that its an 1865. Also, Most of the 1865's had the Stabler Cutoff.

1860

1865

 

[kotkinjs1]

1865 I guess. I can't tell exactly about the cut off. That should be clearly visible forward of the trigger right?

 

[redbob]

Go to the Weapons & Ammo Forum and page down to Biggest Yankee Error and ucvrelics.com has posted some pictures of the Stabler Cut-off. Also, there are companies that still stock original Spencer parts if you wish to replace your missing parts.

 

[kotkinjs1]

Go to the Weapons & Ammo Forum and page down to Biggest Yankee Error and ucvrelics.com has posted some pictures of the Stabler Cut-off. Also, there are companies that still stock original Spencer parts if you wish to replace your missing parts.

So you think the cut off is missing in the photos? Otherwise how's it look?

 

[kotkinjs1]

Also, is there a way to approximately date this one with that early mod 65 serial number?

 

[redbob]

So you think the cut off is missing in the photos? Otherwise how's it look?

It may have never had one and if it did, they were easily removed-one screw and it was gone. Also, my 1865 has a sling swivel on the front barrel band (which are available if you want one). The thing about these Spencers is that they are easily a "mix and match" gun and it is hard to tell what is original (such as the front sling swivel) and what is not.

 

[UCVRelics]

Some of the early versions of the 1865 had the 1865 stamped forward of the receiver as the one below; Also, below that is both positions of the Stable Cut Off Device. @redbob is correct in that yours have been a pieces parts or parts were swapped out. Bottom line is I don't believe its a cut-down rifle. Tell will be how many grooves in the barrel.

Single Shot position

Repeating position

 

[kotkinjs1]

6 grooves I think....

 

[UCVRelics]

Model 1860 Spencer with some 1865 replacement parts

 

[kotkinjs1]

Which parts do you think? The 20" barrel and receiver are SN matching apparently. If the cut off and the sight ladder are replaced that should make it a complete m1865, no?

 

[UCVRelics]

Not being able to look at it in person and just going on your photos. I believe what you may have is a Model 1865, converted from an 1860 which all were manufactured before 1865 about 10,000 were modified in 1865. If it does not have the Stabler its not one of these conversions and I would put it in the Frankenstein colume. This weapon revolutionized carbines, it was a repeater, capable of handling seven all weather or metallic rim fire cartridges at a time, providing a major advantage over the single shot paper cartridge percussion weapons previously employed. The so called "56 / 56" cartridge was originally used, this meant that the side of the cartridge fitted over the bullet was straight, however the bullet and bore are smaller at approximately .52 caliber. Seven cartridges were loaded by a magazine tube fitted through the butt. The magazine had an internal spring, cartridge was readied by raising and lowering a lever also serving as a trigger guard. However, the 7 shot repeater proved to be unreliable, having a tendency to jam, so a number were reverted back to single shot by installation of the Stabler cutoff. This was lever installed on the bottom of the receiver, it could be switched on or off to enable or block the feed from the magazine. A square notch was cut into the bottom of the receiver, if the lever is removed, which is common, the square notch remains. In addition the sharp edges of the top of the receiver were milled rounded, this so that the cartridges could be more easily inserted into the chamber. The straight cartridge was also redesigned to a tapered cartridge "56 / 52" or "56 / 50", the bullet was smaller but still about .52 cal. The orginal six groove rifling was milled, and a sleeve was inserted with three groove rifling. The 22inch barrel was not shortened. The straight edge of hammer was milled to a bevel eliminating the edge protruding from the side of the receiver, however this 1865 beveled hammer was the same size as the 1860 straight hammer, so either can be found. The smooth magazine thumbstall was replaced with a ribbed surface. However, since the point of the conversion was to disable the magazine, either magazine can be found. No changes were made to the other features, iron buttplate with hole and catch to secure the magazine tube, single iron band, Spencer long range sight, saddle bar and ring installed on left side for hanging from a sling, strap hook on bottom of butt. Mark on top of frame: "SPENCER REPEATING - / RIFLE CO. BOSTON. MASS. / PAT'D MARCH 6. 1860. ". Serial number on rear of frame. The wood was often refinished, old cartouches were sanded out and sometimes a new one will appear on the butt. Barrel length, 22in.

 

[kotkinjs1]

Thanks for all that info! I didn't quite understand the part about the her face and bevelling but below is a photo of the hammer. Also a close up of the area around the cut-off area. The switch definitely isn't there but I can't tell what the area would look like without it. There's something rectangular there but I do t know if it's related to that or not. Also, the 1865 had the 20" barrel right?

 

[kotkinjs1]

Not being able to look at it in person and just going on your photos. I believe what you may have is a Model 1865, converted from an 1860 which all were manufactured before 1865 about 10,000 were modified in 1865. If it does not have the Stabler its not one of these conversions and I would put it in the Frankenstein colume.....

ucv, thanks again for that write up. After some closer inspection I think it's a model 1865 as youve described with the lever removed for the cut-off. There also seems to be a very small screw hole that's also empty. From your photos of the cut-off area there's supposed to be one there....I assume that's got some relationship with the Stabler system. I've seen replacement Stabler levers on ebay and such but those have a round place where the part on mine is square. Is there a different attachment or is this just a plug when the cut-off system was removed do you think?

 

[redbob]

ucv, thanks again for that write up. After some closer inspection I think it's a model 1865 as youve described with the lever removed for the cut-off. There also seems to be a very small screw hole that's also empty. From your photos of the cut-off area there's supposed to be one there....I assume that's got some relationship with the Stabler system. I've seen replacement Stabler levers on ebay and such but those have a round place where the part on mine is square. Is there a different attachment or is this just a plug when the cut-off system was removed do you think?
View attachment 206137 View attachment 206138

The plug is where the screw that held the Stabler cutoff goes and the small hole next to it is where a small screw goes to keep (I believe) the cut off lever from turning in that direction. Also, the notch in the bottom picture would seem to indicate that a cutoff was at one time on the weapon. Hopefully, someone with more knowledge that me will come along to tell us if I was anywhere near right with my statements.