Southern Rail Difficulties

[wausaubob]

The railroad issues could not have been addressed without the Confederacy admitting from the beginning, the Yankees will fight and the US navy will be active on the coasts and on the internal rivers.
People in Kentucky knew it. They did not have to be told. People in Tennessee suspected it, and saw the evidence as early as February 1862.

 

[wausaubob]

If the secessionists had admitted its going to be a long war and railroad maintenance is going to be a serious issue, the wave of secessoion in the middle 8 states would have been slower and weaker.

 

[steamman]

That is difficult to fully assess. The youth were family of slave holders, many of them, that went off to war and fought bravely. The owners too in some cases, but the ones that were exempt from a conscription were having all their necessities demanded from them, including the lives of family members. So I agree it could be confusing to the ones wanting to guard the home hearth and having a government come and carry away their own needs and leave them with a promise. That promise of liberty and freedom wasn't fulfilled, but to the slaves they were holding on to. I like that analogy you used of "Net of 2. -1 South, +1 North". Thank you.
Lubliner.

Somewhere I heard a video where the guy said that southerns slave holders were willing to sacrifice there sons to the cause of the South, but not their slaves.

I have the notion that most of the sons (and fathers)volunteered in the first months of the war expecting a short war. The notion of death was ignored at first. The loss of a slave was immediate. Later we get the draft when the cavalier romance fades.

What was a slaveowner's loyality to. Was it to protect slavery or the idea of a Southern nation free of Northern meddeling. I wish it was the second, but I fear it was the first.

Yes the gallant Southern soldiers were worth 10 Yankees, but we ran out.

Back to railroading. There will be both white and black labor shortages. Logistics will be second to men in the ranks and there is not enough men and iron to fund both.

 

[leftyhunter]

Somewhere I heard a video where the guy said that southerns slave holders were willing to sacrifice there sons to the cause of the South, but not their slaves.

I have the notion that most of the sons (and fathers)volunteered in the first months of the war expecting a short war. The notion of death was ignored at first. The loss of a slave was immediate. Later we get the draft when the cavalier romance fades.

What was a slaveowner's loyality to. Was it to protect slavery or the idea of a Southern nation free of Northern meddeling. I wish it was the second, but I fear it was the first.

Yes the gallant Southern soldiers were worth 10 Yankees, but we ran out.

Back to railroading. There will be both white and black labor shortages. Logistics will be second to men in the ranks and there is not enough men and iron to fund both.

I have a thread which I can bump up " by what metric is the Confederate soldier superior?". The Confederate Army lost battles where they outnumbered the Union Army such has Prairie Grove ,Pea Ridge , Mill's Springs ,Battle of Atlanta, Poison Springs and no doubt others.
The Union Army average manpower superiority ratio is only 1.86 to one in all major battles. In no way is one Confederate soldier worth ten Union soldiers.
Leftyhunter

 

[Rhea Cole]

Putting the soldiers who had seen the US Army of the Tennessee in Mississippi among the Confederate brigades at Chattanooga, might not have been well considered.
The guys from Mississippi had been whipped multiple times and survived a 6 week siege. As Grant wrote, if the Confederacy had been a democracy, the people would have forced a peace agreement in December 1863.
It explains that Chattanooga was one place where Grant's guesses on enemy moral were based on the correct evidence.
It wasn't the railroads. It was the fact the Confederate leadership demanded that people keep fighting and dying when the Confederacy was reduced to the 5 Atlantic coast states, plus Alabama that made the railroads an issue.

You make a good point. By that time about 3/4ths of Confederate army was AWOL.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Somewhere I heard a video where the guy said that southerns slave holders were willing to sacrifice there sons to the cause of the South, but not their slaves.

I have the notion that most of the sons (and fathers)volunteered in the first months of the war expecting a short war. The notion of death was ignored at first. The loss of a slave was immediate. Later we get the draft when the cavalier romance fades.

What was a slaveowner's loyality to. Was it to protect slavery or the idea of a Southern nation free of Northern meddeling. I wish it was the second, but I fear it was the first.

Yes the gallant Southern soldiers were worth 10 Yankees, but we ran out.

Back to railroading. There will be both white and black labor shortages. Logistics will be second to men in the ranks and there is not enough men and iron to fund both.

There was also the fact that Confederate soldiers deserted when their home territory was lost. Desertion from hospitals was rampant.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Here is an example of the breakdown in RR maintenance affecting a critical operation. On the northern end of the 2,000 foot long Nashville & Chattanooga RR tunnel through Monteagle Mountain lies the hamlet of Cowan TN. A second line, locally known as the Mountain Goat Road, chugged up the face of the mountain & connected with coal mines on the Cumberland Plateau. The coal from those mines fueled the engines on the N &C RR.

In June 1863, the special built mountain engines of the Mountain Goat Road were out of service due to lack of parts. Not only did this affect operations on the N&CRR, it made Bragg's retreat from Tullahoma all the more difficult. Denied the easy transit up the Mountain Goat Road, Bragg's men & animals were forced to make an arduous assent in driving rain.

Returned to service with fresh replacement parts, the Mountain Goat Road delivered tons of coal necessary to supply Sherman's army group in Georgia.

 

[Lubliner]

Here is an example of the breakdown in RR maintenance affecting a critical operation. On the northern end of the 2,000 foot long Nashville & Chattanooga RR tunnel through Monteagle Mountain lies the hamlet of Cowan TN. A second line, locally known as the Goat Road, chugged up the face of the mountain & connected with coal mines on the Cumberland Plateau. The coal from those mines fueled the engines on the N &C RR.

In June 1863, the special built mountain engines of the Goat Road were out of service due to lack of parts. Not only did this affect operations on the N&CRR, it made Bragg's retreat from Tullahoma all the more difficult. Denied the easy transit up the Goat Road, Bragg's men & animals were forced to make an arduous assent in driving rain.

Returned to service with fresh replacement parts, the Goat Road delivered tons of coal necessary to supply Sherman's army group in Georgia.

I agree with the confederate desertion and AAWOL. It not only sapped the manpower by absenteeism but it became necessary to assign Cavalry Units the task of locating their own conscripts, instead of seeking the enemy.
I have never heard of the Goat Road. I am familiar with Monteagle mountain and the mining opportunities in the gorge running at it's base, and of the few roads that led into the Sequatchie Valley and over Walden's ridge (plateau) from Jasper toward Whitwell and Powell's Crossroads. After Grant freed up Chattanooga and was called back east, General Thomas relocated the milling operation from two miles out of the city back within the defenses and soon had a mill operation that had a capacity to handle 50 tons of iron a day, using twisted and burnt rails both armies had been prompted to destroy so as not to be used. This was a major development preceding the assault southward by Sherman, and continued to the end of the war when it was ordered to be discontinued by the army.
I know that tunnel you mention but am unsure whether it was dynamited when Bragg retreated. I would love to hear some more!
Lubliner.

 

[Lubliner]

Putting the soldiers who had seen the US Army of the Tennessee in Mississippi among the Confederate brigades at Chattanooga, might not have been well considered.
The guys from Mississippi had been whipped multiple times and survived a 6 week siege. As Grant wrote, if the Confederacy had been a democracy, the people would have forced a peace agreement in December 1863.
It explains that Chattanooga was one place where Grant's guesses on enemy moral were based on the correct evidence.
It wasn't the railroads. It was the fact the Confederate leadership demanded that people keep fighting and dying when the Confederacy was reduced to the 5 Atlantic coast states, plus Alabama that made the railroads an issue.

When the Yankees moved into Tennessee and finally drove the rebels out, down to Dalton, the occupying forces left in Tennessee had already been anticipatory of peace. As you say Grant spoke so in his memoirs. The Department of Engineers that were connected to the railroad had been given preparatory orders, on both Nashville and Chattanooga. To operate the railroad system between the two cities, basing them as a central hub for the coming campaigns, they had to bring in trustworthy employees. This necessitated building new quarters for the workers, several thousand of them, and provide hospital accommodations for the predictable increase.
"Where buildings and machinery would probably would probably remain permanent in the event of peace, they were well constructed in order that they might be sold to advantage; where they would only be used during the war, they were built cheaply as possible."
[O. R., Series 3, Vol. 5, pg. 587]
Thank you for expanding on the thread.
Lubliner.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Would one know of the number of plantations were lost to former slaves due to inability to pay taxes and how many were taken by Northern investors {carpetbaggers} and banks which were owned loans by the previous owners who could not repay these loans? Could this be one of the reason that certain plantations owners did not desire to succeed ,fear of losing the war,sure that this action would bring war, then losing their way of life and political influence.Most had been North and knew of the North's economic and industrial strength ?

I don't know the answer to your question. However, one of the first pieces of legislation passed after secession was to void all loans from Northern banks.

 

[Lubliner]

@John S. Carter the first place for research I would turn would be the Freedman's Bureau in charge of those operations after the war.
Thank you for asking,
Lubliner

 

[Rhea Cole]

I agree with the confederate desertion and AAWOL. It not only sapped the manpower by absenteeism but it became necessary to assign Cavalry Units the task of locating their own conscripts, instead of seeking the enemy.
I have never heard of the Goat Road. I am familiar with Monteagle mountain and the mining opportunities in the gorge running at it's base, and of the few roads that led into the Sequatchie Valley and over Walden's ridge (plateau) from Jasper toward Whitwell and Powell's Crossroads. After Grant freed up Chattanooga and was called back east, General Thomas relocated the milling operation from two miles out of the city back within the defenses and soon had a mill operation that had a capacity to handle 50 tons of iron a day, using twisted and burnt rails both armies had been prompted to destroy so as not to be used. This was a major development preceding the assault southward by Sherman, and continued to the end of the war when it was ordered to be discontinued by the army.
I know that tunnel you mention but am unsure whether it was dynamited when Bragg retreated. I would love to hear some more!
Lubliner.

The tunnel through Monteagle was not blocked or damaged in any way during Bragg's retreat.

The Mountain Goat Road crosses over the outlet of the Cumberland Mountain (Monteagle) Tunnel near Cowan TN
Notice the 2-4-0 mountain engine is very different from the 4-8-4 mainline engine coming out of the Tunnel.

Nashville Chattanooga & Saint Louis RR Engine Number 576 was on display in Centennial Park in Nashville for 50 years.
It is now being restored & will pull excursion trains on the Nashville & Eastern RR.

The Mountain Goat RR roadbed is now a hiking & biking trail.​

 

[Lubliner]

The tunnel through Monteagle was not blocked or damaged in any way during Bragg's retreat.View attachment 364456
The Goat Road crosses over the outlet of the Cumberland Mountain (Monteagle) Tunnel near Cowan TN
Notice the 2-4-0 mountain engine is very different from the 4-8-4 mainline engine coming out of the Tunnel.

View attachment 364457

Nashville Chattanooga & Saint Louis RR Engine Number 567 was on display in Centennial Park in Nashville for 50 years.
It is now being restored & will pull excursion trains on the Nashville & Eastern RR.​

I have a good neighbor whose Dad helped rebuild this one.

Enjoy,
Lubliner.

 

[Lubliner]

@Rhea Cole, that Locomotive #567 is a diesel isn't it. The one here in Chattanooga, was the last of the coal burning steam engines on the line. It may not be the one pictured. I know it was purchased from Kentucky where it had sat dormant for years. Some railroad men here, petitioned to purchase it, and bureaucratic tape had to be overcome to put it into running condition there, and bring it back here to our city. https://www.chattanoogan.com/2014/8/27/283124/TVRMs-Historic-Steam-Locomotive-4501.aspx
is the one I meant. I couldn't remember the number, but finally found it. A hour long video on the history can be found at youtube. It is recommended if you like trains.

 

[steamman]

@Rhea Cole, that Locomotive #567 is a diesel isn't it. The one here in Chattanooga, was the last of the coal burning steam engines on the line. It may not be the one pictured. I know it was purchased from Kentucky where it had sat dormant for years. Some railroad men here, petitioned to purchase it, and bureaucratic tape had to be overcome to put it into running condition there, and bring it back here to our city. https://www.chattanoogan.com/2014/8/27/283124/TVRMs-Historic-Steam-Locomotive-4501.aspx
is the one I meant. I couldn't remember the number, but finally found it. A hour long video on the history can be found at youtube. It is recommended if you like trains.

Maybe

 

[Rhea Cole]

@Rhea Cole, that Locomotive #567 is a diesel isn't it. The one here in Chattanooga, was the last of the coal burning steam engines on the line. It may not be the one pictured. I know it was purchased from Kentucky where it had sat dormant for years. Some railroad men here, petitioned to purchase it, and bureaucratic tape had to be overcome to put it into running condition there, and bring it back here to our city. https://www.chattanoogan.com/2014/8/27/283124/TVRMs-Historic-Steam-Locomotive-4501.aspx
is the one I meant. I couldn't remember the number, but finally found it. A hour long video on the history can be found at youtube. It is recommended if you like trains.

It most certainly is not a diesel. I have known it all my life. # 576 was about as good as a coal fired steam engines were ever going to get.

 

[Lubliner]

It most certainly is not a diesel. I have known it all my life. # 576 was about as good as a coal fired steam engines were ever going to get.

It was so sleek I thought it was a later version. So this was actually built in 1942 or am I reading a repeated mistake. Wartime in America, how is it explained when ramping up for Europe in our industries. Thanks,
Lubliner.

 

[steamman]

There were some sleek steam locomotive engines. 1937 B&O Royal Blue.

 

[Lubliner]

There were some sleek steam locomotive engines. 1937 B&O Royal Blue.View attachment 364619

That is a beautiful photo but what really catches my eye is the bridge and the surrounding hills. I notice terrain and topographical features much more readily than anything else. I always had an eye for exploration. Thanks for putting that one up. Noticeable differences I can see right off, but the minor details escape me.
Lubliner.

 

[Rhea Cole]

There were some sleek steam locomotive engines. 1937 B&O Royal Blue.View attachment 364619

These were jerk water tenders. There is film of a J model like this one roaring through while a scoop collects water from a trough between the rails. It is pretty spectacular looking. These things could do over 100 mph, I have no idea what speed they needed to make the jerk water work. Fire bombers do the same thing, skimming on the surface of a lake.