Sickles Venture Forward

[TDMD]

This is an excellent summary. I would add that had Sickles not moved forward, it is very likely that the 1st Minnesota would not have had to make their charge to save the Federal position on Cemetery Ridge, thus the 1st Minnesota likely would not have been destroyed.

Also, troops that Meade might have considered for a tactical counteroffensive, were now no longer fresh.

 

[TDMD]

Oddy, I can defend Sickles....messed up Lee's plan. Absorbed, like a death cushion, the brunt of Longstreet's attack. Till the day he died he defended that move. Hell, who knows? He is cool to watch on the film of the 1913 reunuion. He was the toast of the town fer a week. Not totally an idiot. How many Condederate deaths did his corps kill? They had to fight it out over ground they (Lee) thought was not defended. Never be resolved...but man he chewed up a LOT of Longstreet's corps.....lots. Anyone got da balls to defend Sickles? Tough to do since the "official" word as been cast.

I think he defended that move till the day he died because he didn't want to be considered 'wrong'. He started lying about the propriety of his move as early as July 5, when Lincoln visited him at the hospital - and he never stopped.

 

[BillO]

I agree. Sickles had no business moving forward & killed alot of men by doing so. Lee was sending Longstreet in with a plan based on a false scouting report. Lee was lead to believe Meade's flank was along the Edmmitsburg Rd. & exposed. The repoert was false & Longstreet would have found the Federals in nearly the same positions they held on the 3rd if Sickles hadnt make his blunder.... we all know how that assault ended. Plus Meade had to pull thousands of troops from Culps Hill to reinforce Sickles, making the critical point vulnerable.

Pure conjecture as to what Lee's plans were. The only evidence we really have is Longstreet well after the fact trying to defend himself.

 

[MPCrosby]

His move led to the death of a lot of men. Heck just look at the losses from the 1st Minnesota trying to plug the gap when ordered by Hancock to advance facing certain death

 

[TDMD]

Pure conjecture as to what Lee's plans were. The only evidence we really have is Longstreet well after the fact trying to defend himself.

I think it's pretty well understood that Lee intended to roll up the Federal left, which he thought was hanging because of the faulty intelligence from Captain Johnston. It was thought that the Union left flank rested upon either the Emmittsburg Road Ridge, a little north of the PO or along Cemetery Ridge.

 

[TDMD]

His move led to the death of a lot of men. Heck just look at the losses from the 1st Minnesota trying to plug the gap when ordered by Hancock to advance facing certain death

Yeah, what, about 82%? That's the definition of forlorn hope, right there.

 

[Dugger]

Yeah, what, about 82%? That's the definition of forlorn hope, right there.

Yes, late in the day, 1st Minn....actually by that point Rebs had shot their wad. That was not going anywhere. Sickles is an interesting "what if" ...hmmmm I do not know, BUT the ANV had to fight it out all afternoon and into the evening tks to Sickels screw up. ???? Maybe, ya think?

 

[Dugger]

I agree with everyone here (maybe I oughta go into politics). His movement seriously derailed Lee's plan for an echelon attack that was supposed to roll up the cemetary right but it pretty much wrecked his corps in the process so the cost was quite high.

Sometimes men are expendable. Not pretty....but it happens.

 

[TDMD]

Yes, late in the day, 1st Minn....actually by that point Rebs had shot their wad. That was not going anywhere. Sickles is an interesting "what if" ...hmmmm I do not know, BUT the ANV had to fight it out all afternoon and into the evening tks to Sickels screw up. ???? Maybe, ya think?

We can't know for sure what would have happened had Sickles stayed put, but given Lee's firmness in his battle plan and Longstreet's reticence to alter it radically, I think that the results would have been much better had he done as ordered. We do know that in one of the rare instances of the war, the attacking force lost fewer men than (by a little over 2,000 men) the defenders. We know that one corps suffered horrendous casualties and others had to engage to try to save it. We know that it badly disrupted what Meade wanted to do with his defensive alignment by forcing Meade to shuttle troops to an area that suddenly became a crisis point. So it worth all that, I don't think it was.

 

[Dugger]

:noway:

Doug
Oddly I would have to agree. Not by design or by some military genius Sickles move altered the day
Dan

My point zactly. Not by design, not ordered, perhaps dumb....but, messed up the The PLAN. Poor Dan. Odd and will be debated till death do us part. I like my anolgy the "death cushion " brunt of the assualt. But,,,can be argued had he stayed where Meade wanted him it would have been better. But again...maybe. God thiis drives me carzy. Dan Sickles...what charater. Yup. School still out IMO on that move. Yup.:noway: Not settlled....nope. :noway:

 

[TDMD]

Sometimes men are expendable. Not pretty....but it happens.

But it wasn't just the men. Meade could have used those men the following day to mop up after Pickett's Charge, or to be in the van of a pursuit force. Anyway, that's about 8,800 men who weren't there for Meade later.

 

[TDMD]

My point zactly. Not by design, not ordered, perhaps dumb....but, messed up the The PLAN. Poor Dan. Odd and will be debated till death do us part. I like my aborbed the "death cushion " brunt ot the assualt. But,,,can be argued had he stayed where Merade wanted him it would have been better. But again...maybe.

Problem was they didn't hold very long; it was primarily the reinforcing elements who had to create whatever interference they could to allow Third Corps to retreat.

 

[Dugger]

But it wasn't just the men. Meade could have used those men the following day to mop up after Pickett's Charge, or to be in the van of a pursuit force. Anyway, that's about 8,800 men who weren't there for Meade later.

Sdewicks corp....20,0000. Good point.

 

[prroh]

Yes. You raised an excellent point about Sickles comparing Sherfy's Peach Orchard to the Hazel Grove terrain feature at Chancellorsville.

My only nitpick, would be that Longstreet's right (not his left) would have been the exposed flank facing Sickles, had he stayed put.

Thanx. I was thinking of the Union left instead of the ANV right.

I wonder what adjustment Longstreet could have made to the threat from the III Corps in their original position? McClaws would be pretty much no support as he had gotten very specific orders from Lee. Specific to the point of public humiliation.

 

[Dugger]

But it wasn't just the men. Meade could have used those men the following day to mop up after Pickett's Charge, or to be in the van of a pursuit force. Anyway, that's about 8,800 men who weren't there for Meade later.

Meade had LEE IN THE PALM OF HIS HAND, but just as little Mac did not get it a year earlier, neithe did Mead comprehend that he had a beatin army in front of him. Can you imagine what Grant would done? He woud have cut the crossings, killed with the 2/3rd of the army he had left...possibly pinned Lee north of the Potomac. Etc. Crossed the Potomac in pursuit,,,,got in front of Lee. Blab Blab. Never disengaed...called Battle to death...till some one quits. Thats what did when he got in command. Hell....it's on the record. Read it.

 

[Dugger]

Good points made here. Just getting grumpy. Tks.

 

[TDMD]

Thanx. I was thinking of the Union left instead of the ANV right.

I wonder what adjustment Longstreet could have made to the threat from the III Corps in their original position? McClaws would be pretty much no support as he had gotten very specific orders from Lee. Specific to the point of public humiliation.

According to an article in Gettysburg Magazine (#28) by Dave Powell, Sickles' staying put would have given Longstreet three options:
1) Attack as ordered and risk the enfilade fire from Sickles' Third Corps.
2) Modify the plan and risk Lee's further ire. (This is the one he chose. More on this below)
3) Cancel the attack completely and get Lee really mad.

Looking through Pfanz yesterday, it appears that Longstreet had Lee either approve modifications, or Lee made them himself. They still seem to involve rolling up the Union left. (Pfanz references the plans on pages, 113, 153 and 303.)

 

[TDMD]

Meade had LEE IN THE PALM OF HIS HAND, but just as little Mac did not get it a year earlier, neithe did Mead comprehend that he had a beatin army in front of him. Can you imagine what Grant would done? He woud have cut the crossings, killed with the 2/3rd of the army he had left...possibly pinned Lee north of the Potomac. Etc. Crossed the Potomac in pursuit,,,,got in front of Lee. Blab Blab. Never disengaed...called Battle to death...till some one quits. Thats what did when he got in command. Hell....it's on the record. Read it.

According to Eric Wittenberg, in his book One Continuous Fight Meade did about as well in pursuit as could be reasonably expected. I don't have the book, but my assertion comes from discussion with him on another site. Don't forget that the cavalry attacks planned near Hagerstown by Buford and Kilpatrick were botched by Kilpatrick. Also, as the retreat began, it didn't take Lee long to get on the other side of South Mountain, where a division (maybe less) could hold off a whole corps for hours - I think Meade was trying to avoid second Battle of South Mountain.

 

[TDMD]

Good points made here. Just getting grumpy. Tks.

Not a problem. It happens to everyone. Happy Father's Day!

 

[Rob9641]

One important thing Sickles move did was sucker Lee into thinking he had actually gained ground on Day 2 when Longstreets men took the Wheatfield, Peach Orchard and Devil's Den.

As several have said, Sickles also necessitated the sacrifice of the 1st Minn (and 9th MA battery, and others) and gave Lee a near breakthrough that also suckered him into thinking he was closer to success than he really was.

So - if Sickles hadn't moved and the attacks on Day 2 hadn't budged the Union line - would there have even been a Pickett's Charge? In other words, if Lee hadn't thought he gained something on Day 2, might he have taken Longstreet's advice and adjusted his troops south on Day 3 to find better ground (there's some great high ground between Emmitsburg and Thurmont Lee might have been able to discover if he deployed Stuart that way as soon as he turned up.)