{⋆★⋆} BG Shelby, Joseph O.

Joseph Orville Shelby​

Born: December 12, 1830

Birthplace: Lexington Kentucky

Father: Orville Shelby 1803 – 1835

Mother: Anna Maria Boswell 1808 – 1892

(Buried: Lexington Cemetery Lexington Kentucky)​

Wife: Elizabeth M. Shelby 1841 – 1928

(Buried: Forest Hill Cemetery Kansas City Missouri)​

Children:

Joseph Boswell Shelby 1864 – 1940​

(Buried: Forest Hill Cemetery Kansas City Missouri)​

​

John Morgan Shelby 1878 – 1951​

(Buried: Forest Hill Cemetery Kansas City Missouri)​

Education:

Attended Transylvania University​

Occupation before War:

Rope Manufacturer in Lexington Kentucky​

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Steam Boating Businessman on the Missouri River​

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Owner of a Hemp Plantation in Missouri​

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Led a company on the pro slavery Side during bleeding Kansas​

Civil War Career:

1861: Captain of a Cavalry Company​

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1862 – 1863: Colonel of Confederate Army Cavalry​

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1863: Leader of Shelby's Great Raid in Missouri and back to Arkansas​

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1863 – 1865: Brigadier General of Confederate Army Cavalry​

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Distinguished himself during Sterling Price's Missouri Raid​

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1865: Unofficially a Major General of Confederate Army Cavalry​

Occupation after War:

1865: Rode South to Mexico with a 1,000 men not surrendering​

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1865 – 1867: Lived in Veracruz Mexico​

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1867 – 1893: Farmer in Missouri​

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1893 – 1897: United States Marshal Western District of Missouri

Died: February 13, 1897

Place of Death: Adrian Missouri

Age at time of Death: 66 years old

Cause of Death: Pneumonia

Burial Place: Forest Hill Cemetery Kansas City Missouri

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

@Polloco @Patrick H @SWMODave Have I got a treat for y'all

The story of Shelby and his officers burying their flag in the Rio Grande and Shelby romantically placing his plume on it is probably pure myth. I've always read that the story originates with his biographer, aide, friend, and well known habitual liar newspaperman John Edwards. Something that automatically raises a red flag to me. I know other spoke of it, but its all seemed suspicious to me and too convenient for Lost Cause agendas.

The story never seemed right to me. Supposedly Shelby and his men were hoping for future French and Imperial Mexican support in re-igniting the spark as it were according to many sources, so to me why would they discard they're flag(s). Even if not their plan it was still a banner they fought and bled under, and I have a hard time seeing soldiers on either side burying it.

Well it seems the flag apparently still existed up till a few years ago! A planned work trip is going to take me by Oklahoma City and among certain CW stops, this museum was a planned one but from everything I can find its closed now. The Oklahoma Historical Society museum, a shame as I really want to see it and its history to see if it could be the real deal. Here's a picture from the now defunct civilwaralbum site.

Oklahoma Historical Society Confederate/Union Memorials

Oklahoma Historical Society Confederate and Union Memorial Rooms

web.archive.org

If genuine, the major Lost Cause myth was built around it should be smashed to smithereens.

 

[SWMODave]

I suspect there is little doubt that much of the story is legend. Much of Missouri Civil War history is now historical 'fact' based on nothing more than a family legend or a story that changed and got better over time. Shelby's glorious march to Mexico ended at the river, because his services were not welcome in Mexico by the governing body, and he had to sell his arms to the side he wasn't planning on fighting for, including the cannon he took, for money for his men. I believe it worked out to $82(or close) for each man - each man getting an equal portion (maybe).

My hunch was a lowering of his colors was a requirement for entry into Mexico. Every story I have ever read said Shelby buried his flag in the Rio Grande, but earlier stories had them taking it out to the middle of the river in a row boat. Which, if you didn't want someone to find it, would make more sense than standing around it on the river bank. I believe the initial story goes the colonels did hold it, but then it was then taken by boat to the middle of the river. So all standing around it 'in' the river .... A few stretches here and a pretty painting there and walla - history is rewritten.

Without much more research, I can not speak to the flag that Oklahoma has/had. My initial question would be how many flags did Shelby's men fight under and were any of them captured - possibly at Westport or as he covered Price's retreat back to Arkansas?

followup - initial research shows that the Oklahoma Historical Society apparently claims this is THE flag that was sunk by Shelby. At least that is what they told Texas (source)

Last edit - might read "Lies Across America - What Our Historic Sites Got Wrong" and apparently chapter 20 titles "The Oklahoma State History Museum Told No HIstory: Finally They Closed It". In the preview section that Google Book shows they tell where the flag claimed to have come from - but the story behind the claim is blocked from public view. I did find mention of a 1915 trip to Oklahoma by Mrs Shelby where she reportedly met the soldier who OHS claimed to have rescued it - but no mention of any flag is made. (source) Interesting research for someone who really wanted to discover the truth ... but I have others irons in the fire.

Studying Missouri Civil War history is a microcosm of CW history as a whole. It is no longer "I will believe it when I see it". Now it is "I see only what I believe".

 

[Lusty Murfax]

Another painting--shown on the cover of the 1993 re-issue of "Shelby and His Men" depicts the General placing his plume in the flag as it is lowered into the river. In any event, my hesitance about the first description of the event was not so much that the flag was weighted with a rock, but that he wrapped it around a rock and "threw it into the Rio Grand." I don't doubt they weighted the flag. In his adopted home town of Waverly, Missouri, there's a bronze equestrian statue of Shelby. It's not a particularly good piece. In fact, it looks to me like the contract was given to the low bidder. But it does depict his hat plume.

View attachment 343031

That's a sad looking horse.

 

[Patrick H]

That's a sad looking horse.

Upon close viewing in person, I actually think the horse sculpture is better than the Shelby sculpture. It looks to me like a second casting of some race horse portrait statue at a track somewhere. It looks like Shelby was put astride later. Shelby's head and shoulders are out of proportion, too. But at least his home town tried. It's a very small town and I doubt they had a very big budget.

 

[Patrick H]

I've always read that the story originates with his biographer, aide, friend, and well known habitual liar newspaperman John Edwards.

Edwards was often a bombastic writer. There's no doubt about that. He would have been an eyewitness to the trek to Mexico and the events that transpired there. He wrote a separate volume about the Mexican sojourn and it's one of his least flamboyant works. I have not checked it to see if he mentions the flag in that one. I'll get around to checking, but not this morning. Regarding the battle flag in the Oklahoma collection, it would be excellent to see their provenance. It is as easy for them to make a wild claim as it was for John Newman Edwards.

 

[Pollaco]

Nothing solved and a bigger mystery presented. The Oklahoma museum has A flag but is it The flag?If the museum is recently closed where is this flag now?

 

[archieclement]

Edwards was often a bombastic writer. There's no doubt about that. He would have been an eyewitness to the trek to Mexico and the events that transpired there. He wrote a separate volume about the Mexican sojourn and it's one of his least flamboyant works. I have not checked it to see if he mentions the flag in that one. I'll get around to checking, but not this morning. Regarding the battle flag in the Oklahoma collection, it would be excellent to see their provenance. It is as easy for them to make a wild claim as it was for John Newman Edwards.

Find the habitual liar claim a bit over the top, virtually every T-M historian uses Edwards as a source, guess they are all habitual liars. He was biased as most anyone who lived through the ACW was. I believe there are Westlake diary accounts of the Mexican expedition as well.

There was no shortage of witnesses to discount Edwards account, none apparently did. Elliot, Slayback, Gordon, and Shelby were there besides less notables

 

[Boonslick]

And yet another painting...

 

[Boonslick]

And another Shelby book...

 

[Patrick H]

And another Selby book...

View attachment 343063

@Boonslick, I didn't know about this one. Now I'm curious!

 

[Patrick H]

Does anyone know of a collection of later Shelby memorabilia? For example, what would he have had in his U.S. Marshall office in Kansas City after the war, and where would those items be today?

 

[archieclement]

Also theres

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0890966842/?tag=civilwartalkc-20

and
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1400068304/?tag=civilwartalkc-20

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

I suspect there is little doubt that much of the story is legend. Much of Missouri Civil War history is now historical 'fact' based on nothing more than a family legend or a story that changed and got better over time. Shelby's glorious march to Mexico ended at the river, because his services were not welcome in Mexico by the governing body, and he had to sell his arms to the side he wasn't planning on fighting for, including the cannon he took, for money for his men. I believe it worked out to $82(or close) for each man - each man getting an equal portion (maybe).

My hunch was a lowering of his colors was a requirement for entry into Mexico. Every story I have ever read said Shelby buried his flag in the Rio Grande, but earlier stories had them taking it out to the middle of the river in a row boat. Which, if you didn't want someone to find it, would make more sense than standing around it on the river bank. I believe the initial story goes the colonels did hold it, but then it was then taken by boat to the middle of the river. So all standing around it 'in' the river .... A few stretches here and a pretty painting there and walla - history is rewritten.

Without much more research, I can not speak to the flag that Oklahoma has/had. My initial question would be how many flags did Shelby's men fight under and were any of them captured - possibly at Westport or as he covered Price's retreat back to Arkansas?

followup - initial research shows that the Oklahoma Historical Society apparently claims this is THE flag that was sunk by Shelby. At least that is what they told Texas (source)

Last edit - might read "Lies Across America - What Our Historic Sites Got Wrong" and apparently chapter 20 titles "The Oklahoma State History Museum Told No HIstory: Finally They Closed It". In the preview section that Google Book shows they tell where the flag claimed to have come from - but the story behind the claim is blocked from public view. I did find mention of a 1915 trip to Oklahoma by Mrs Shelby where she reportedly met the soldier who OHS claimed to have rescued it - but no mention of any flag is made. (source) Interesting research for someone who really wanted to discover the truth ... but I have others irons in the fire.

Studying Missouri Civil War history is a microcosm of CW history as a whole. It is no longer "I will believe it when I see it". Now it is "I see only what I believe".

Very interesting! So its possible they did bury the flag, but it wasn't abandoned like they say? That changes the equation a bit. I really want to see that flag, heck I want a replica of it! If I could see it and get the data on it, I know a flag maker who can make an exact replica of it.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Find the habitual liar claim a bit over the top, virtually every T-M historian uses Edwards as a source, guess they are all habitual liars. He was biased as most anyone who lived through the ACW was. I believe there are Westlake diary accounts of the Mexican expedition as well.

There was no shortage of witnesses to discount Edwards account, none apparently did. Elliot, Slayback, Gordon, and Shelby were there besides less notables

I think him quoted so much do to lack of anyone else around on certain subjects. I know I caught him in several lies researching Jo Shelby's expedition to Mexico.

First one, the Texas treasury robbery- Shelby and his men were no where near Austin when it happened. They showed up two days later and were suspected by locals as the culprits at first. It was a local Home Guard unit that took action and tried to save the treasury as it were. Texas even honored them in the 1890's because they had been so thoroughly forgotten and disgraced by Edwards writings.

Second one, and the one that I wanted to be true most- Shelby and his command go into battle one last time at Parras. This one I really loved and want to be true, but supposedly a French garrison was holed up in a fort in Parras, Mexico under siege and after sending in four men to tell the French they were coming in, some French cavalrymen came back out with them and Shelby and his men under a cavalry guidon attacked the Juaristas and saved the day. After years of searching, I've given up as the one and only source of it is Edwards and I can find no evidence anywhere else, or even evidence of a battle and siege in Parras much less a fort and garrison.

I've not read Slayback and so on, but when I've spent years trying to verify something and find no proof of even existence, all signs point to something. With Edwards that goes on and on. He was a newspaperman, and if there's one thing I've learned, whether 200 hundred years ago, or today you can't trust 'em.

 

[Pollaco]

Is there a source that has Shelby offering his services to Juarez instead of Maximilian? I read somewhere that even though his services were turned down by Maximilian , Shelby was given some land near Vera Cruz where he started a colony that lasted a few years. The colony lasted as long as the Emporer did anyway.
And didn't Edwards (I think?)say that some union soldiers also wanted to join Shelby in Mexico but their enlistment wasn't up yet?

 

[archieclement]

I think him quoted so much do to lack of anyone else around on certain subjects. I know I caught him in several lies researching Jo Shelby's expedition to Mexico.

First one, the Texas treasury robbery- Shelby and his men were no where near Austin when it happened. They showed up two days later and were suspected by locals as the culprits at first. It was a local Home Guard unit that took action and tried to save the treasury as it were. Texas even honored them in the 1890's because they had been so thoroughly forgotten and disgraced by Edwards writings.

Second one, and the one that I wanted to be true most- Shelby and his command go into battle one last time at Parras. This one I really loved and want to be true, but supposedly a French gwwarrison was holed up in a fort in Parras, Mexico under siege and after sending in four men to tell the French they were coming in, some French cavalrymen came back out with them and Shelby and his men under a cavalry guidon attacked the Juaristas and saved the day. After years of searching, I've given up as the one and only source of it is Edwards and I can find no evidence anywhere else, or even evidence of a battle and siege in Parras much less a fort and garrison.

I've not read Slayback and so on, but when I've spent years trying to verify something and find no proof of even existence, all signs point to something. With Edwards that goes on and on. He was a newspaperman, and if there's one thing I've learned, whether 200 hundred years ago, or today you can't trust 'em.

Well I agree to a point........when one has a confirmed eyewitness, and theres nothing disputing the event other the someone 150 yrs later going I dont know if i trust that....All signs do point to the actual eyewitness account...... Especially when there seems to be collaborating accounts as in Slayback and reunion accounts.....

I have read several books on Shelby, and so far have never seen anyone who was actually there, claim it never happened. So yes, all signs do point to the event.

On the treasury event, Interestingly enough Edwards wrote "some thirty or forty Texans from the neighborhood of the town—led by a notorious Captain Rabb [sic]—made a furious sledge-hammer and cold-chisel onslaught upon five large iron safes in the treasury house" which does seem to be who modern historians attribute it to, nor does it seem disputed they helped to restore order to Austin while there....While embellishing the role of Shelbys men, it certainly seems there's truths to Edwards account that have stood the test of time.
And thats why to this day most historians use Edwards as a source, while guilty of bias and embellishment at times, his accounts contain substantial truths.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Well I agree to a point........when one has a confirmed eyewitness, and theres nothing disputing the event other the someone 150 yrs later going I dont know if i trust that....All signs do point to the actual eyewitness account...... Especially when there seems to be collaborating accounts as in Slayback and reunion accounts.....

I have read several books on Shelby, and so far have never seen anyone who was actually there, claim it never happened. So yes, all signs do point to the event.

No my friend, I do believe the issue is you believing one man above anyone else because of who his friends were, and who give a darn about what anyone else back then said because it made Edwards look to be what he truly was. Who his friends were probably dictates what they thought as well, infecting them with the same title.

 

[archieclement]

No my friend, I do believe the issue is you believing one man above anyone else because of who his friends were, and who give a darn about what anyone else back then said because it made Edwards look to be what he truly was. Who his friends were probably dictates what they thought as well, infecting them with the same title.

Indeed I take actual accounts of participants who actually were somewhere, over people who never were, nor provide any evidence of contradictory accounts whatsoever.......most historians do.

The general rule is take an actual account....confirm it with a second source such as Slayback...........not take a opinion, substantiated by nothing.....Whether I like someone or not, has nothing to with if their accounts are substantiated and theres no accounts contradicting the account......it seems your believing no one but your "personal hunch or opinion" above everyone else.......

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

On the treasury event, Interestingly enough Edwards wrote "some thirty or forty Texans from the neighborhood of the town—led by a notorious Captain Rabb [sic]—made a furious sledge-hammer and cold-chisel onslaught upon five large iron safes in the treasury house" which does seem to be who modern historians attribute it to, nor does it seem disputed they helped to restore order to Austin while there....While embellishing the role of Shelbys men, it certainly seems there's truths to Edwards account that have stood the test of time.
And thats why to this day most historians use Edwards as a source, while guilty of bias and embellishment at times, his accounts contain substantial truths.

Why didn't put this in another comment, or list it as an edit?

No it has not stood the test of time. Here's a pretty well researched article from True West Magazine where the truth was laid bare:

The Great Texas Treasury Raid

When the bell atop Austin’s First Baptist Church began clanging that moonlit Sunday evening of June 11, 1865, the town’s civilian home guardsmen knew it

truewestmagazine.com

Or are the authors of a magazine that heaps praise on the James-Younger boys a liar?

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

I think the first hand accounts in that article pretty well discredit Edwards and if he backed it up Slayback. But like when we were in Vicksburg, I reckon I'm reading hostile "Texas Propaganda" again. I have a bad habit of that.