Sharpshooting...

[LtTevis]

Hey all,
Pretty new here so hope I'm posting in the right forum.
Got a few related questions that some here may have insight on.
Were the Berdan Sharpshooters and SC Palmetto Sharpshooters similar in combat performance?
What types of weaponry did these units primarily use, were they similarly effective?
Were they equally trained? What other Sharpshooting units were there?
Any insight is appreciated.
Thanks!

 

[Stryker65]

And the Berdan guys had to take their test standing.

The Palmetto Sharpshooters were formed with various transfers from infantry regiments, and almost immediately were annihilated at the Battle of Glendale, with over 66% casualties. Note that in this battle, they were fed in as infantry. Definitely not the same caliber as the USSS.

Some local companies would attach the moniker "sharpshooters" to their name. I'm not convinced that these men had any specialized formal training- nor specialty arms. I believe it was just a tagline- same for "guards" and "rangers". Sounds more macho.

For example: Mullen's Swamp Guards and Sharpshooters. You'd think that was a pretty specialized company, right? But it became Company H of the 14th Confederate Cavalry Regiment. No sharpshooters.

South Carolina had two Sharpshooter units: the 1st Battalion and the 1st Regiment. The 1st Battalion was commanded by a Charleston lawyer and never really saw Sharpshooter duty, since it became an infantry regiment a year later. The 1st Regiment (aka Palmetto Sharpshooters) were formed with elements of the 5th and 9th South Carolina Infantries. The colonel and lieutenant colonel of the regiment were actually directly transferred from the 5th. No sharpshooter experience. These were the cream of the crop of South Carolina society.

 

[Stryker65]

What other Sharpshooting units were there?

@major bill posted a thread on this six years ago:
https://civilwartalk.com/threads/confederate-sharpshooter-battalions.133057/

 

[Saphroneth]

Interestingly enough there are first-hand accounts of Confederate black sharpshooters. I'd rather assume these were not slaves (free blacks, or possibly overseers?).

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Early apparently made good use of sharpshooter skirmisher units in the Shenandoah, although I think those were ad hoc units formed by brigades only during battle and consisting of the best marksmen in each regiment, rather than dedicated units like the USSS.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Interestingly enough there are first-hand accounts of Confederate black sharpshooters.

All of which I would take with significant grains of salt, especially if the source is a newspaper.

 

[Saphroneth]

All of which I would take with significant grains of salt, especially if the source is a newspaper.

One of the accounts is actually the history of the US Sharpshooters!

 

[Stryker65]

The sharpshooter battalions of the two brigades of John H. Forney's division at Vicksburg escaped, for instance, and joined up with Johnston's army. They were under Capt. M. Pounds of the 43d MS (Hebert's brigade) and Maj. Thomas O. Stone of the 40th AL (Moore's brigade)

Early apparently made good use of sharpshooter skirmisher units in the Shenandoah, although I think those were ad hoc units formed by brigades only during battle and consisting of the best marksmen in each regiment, rather than dedicated units like the USSS.

Some of those were:
- Cox's brigade sharpshooters, Col. Hamilton A. Brown (1st NC)
- Johnston's brigade sharpshooters (1st NC Battalion), Capt. R. E. Wilson
- Conner's brigade sharpshooters, Capt. B. M. Whitener (3rd SC Battalion)
- York's brigade sharpshooters, Lt. R. B. Joyce (1st LA)
- Wofford's brigade sharpshooters (3rd GASS Battalion), Lt. Col. Nathan L. Hutchins, Jr.
- Wharton's division sharpshooters (30th VASS Battalion), Maj. Peter Otey
- Ramseur's division sharpshooters (not named)
- sharpshooter battalion of a Capt. Keller

 

[Sgt. Tyree]

What other Sharpshooting units were there?

Lesser known and often overlooked:

66th Illinois Infantry Regiment - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Western Sharpshooters at Fort Donelson

One of General John Fremont’s special projects during his tenure as commander of the Union army in Missouri was the formation of a de...

dan-masters-civil-war.blogspot.com

 

[Stryker65]

Lesser known and often overlooked:

66th Illinois Infantry Regiment - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Western Sharpshooters at Fort Donelson

One of General John Fremont’s special projects during his tenure as commander of the Union army in Missouri was the formation of a de...

dan-masters-civil-war.blogspot.com

In that same vein...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/64th_Illinois_Infantry_Regiment

the Yates' Sharpshooters.

 

[wausaubob]

You didn't need to be trained how to shoot well if you passed the USSS test. They weren't taught how to be sharpshooters after they enlisted as a U.S. Sharpshooter. They already had the advanced skill. Many of the enlistees came from states where you either shot really well or you didn't eat. There was a lot of practice shooting in camps, but no one had to teach them how to be very accurate shots. The 18 companies went through battalion and company drill similar to infantrymen. They also had skirmish training, undoubtedly more intense than the average infantry regiment/company. But even that wasn't so much about shooting per se.

My recollection is that accuracy contests between the best marksmen in various units were common. Shooting contests also occurred before the war. If the Berdan men did not have formal training, they certainly had experience and aptitude before joining the unit. However shooting a man at 250 yards is quite different than shooting at a target.

 

[Sgt. Tyree]

The USSS functioned both as light infantry skirmishers and as true snipers like the Whitworth men. Or at least a few of them functioned as true snipers. Specialized target rifles (scoped, heavy barrel) were carried in the wagons. The best men used them in a sniper role when a situation called for it.

Source: Sharpshooter Weapons in the American Civil War https://americansocietyofarmscollec...-Sharpshooter-Weapons-in-the-American-Civ.pdf

 

[Nathan Stuart]

The green-jacketed First and Second Regiments of US Sharpshooters (collectively known as 'Berdan's Sharpshooters'), who were predominantly armed with Sharps rifles, were arguably the most lethal units in the Civil War. These regiments comprised advanced marksmen who needed to demonstrate a high standard of long-range marksmanship in order to gain entry into these units. The Berdan sharpshooters performed effectively in extensive engagements in the eastern theater throughout the war (which notably included at Yorktown and on the second day at Gettysburg).

But as effective as these units of specialist Federal marksmen were in combat, am unaware of any Confederate General ever being killed by a Berdan sharpshooter. (In contrast, Confederate Whitworth-armed riflemen were attributed with picking off several Union Generals through the war). Wonder if any of Berdan's expert marksmen were responsible for killing any Confederate Generals in a field of action.

 

[Stryker65]

I've been compiling some recognized official sharpshooting units:
-5th Alabama (Sharpshooters) Battalion (Maj. Eugene Blackford)
-17th Alabama Sharpshooters Battalion (Capt. Benjamin Yancey)
-23rd Alabama Sharpshooters Battalion (Maj. Nicholas Stallworth)
-1st Arkansas Sharpshooters Battalion (Maj. Erasmus Stirman)
-12th Arkansas Sharpshooters Battalion (Maj. William Rapley)
-1st Georgia Sharpshooters Battalion (Maj. Arthur Shaaff)
-2nd Georgia Sharpshooters Battalion (Maj. Robert Whiteley)
-3rd Georgia Sharpshooters Battalion (Lt. Col. Nathan Hutchins)
-4th Georgia Sharpshooters Battalion (Maj. Theodore Caswell)
-2nd Kentucky Sharpshooters Battalion (Maj. John Pope)
-14th Louisiana Sharpshooters Battalion (Maj. John Austin)
-15th Louisiana Sharpshooters Battalion (Maj. Robert Weatherly)
-1st Mississippi Sharpshooters Battalion (Maj. James Stigler)
-9th Mississippi Sharpshooters Battalion (Maj. William Richards)
-15th Mississippi Sharpshooters Battalion (Maj. Abner Hawkins)
-9th Missouri Sharpshooters Battalion (Maj. Lebbeus Pindall)
-1st North Carolina Sharpshooters Battalion (Maj. Rufus Wharton)
-1st South Carolina Sharpshooters Regiment (Col. Micah Jenkins)
-1st South Carolina Sharpshooters Battalion (Maj. Joseph Abney)
-24th Tennessee Sharpshooters Battalion (Maj. Frank Maney)
-1st Texas Sharpshooters Battalion (Maj. James Burnet)
-30th Virginia Sharpshooters Battalion (Maj. Peter Otey)

These are all I can remember; I may have messed up some of the names or ranks, or forgotten some, but these are most of them.

 

[LibertyAndUnion]

The green-jacketed First and Second Regiments of US Sharpshooters (collectively known as 'Berdan's Sharpshooters'), who were predominantly armed with Sharps rifles, were arguably the most lethal units in the Civil War. These regiments comprised advanced marksmen who needed to demonstrate a high standard of long-range marksmanship in order to gain entry into these units. The Berdan sharpshooters performed effectively in extensive engagements in the eastern theater throughout the war (which notably included at Yorktown and on the second day at Gettysburg).

But as effective as these units of specialist Federal marksmen were in combat, am unaware of any Confederate General ever being killed by a Berdan sharpshooter. (In contrast, Confederate Whitworth-armed riflemen were attributed with picking off several Union Generals through the war). Wonder if any of Berdan's expert marksmen were responsible for killing any Confederate Generals in a field of action.

I'm not aware of any USSS member claiming credit for taking out a Confederate general. I don't buy Fox's idea (repeated by some other historians) that the USSS killed more Confederates than any other unit. I doubt it. There's no documentation to back up the claim, and the 2nd USSS didn't have notable combat time until August '62. The 1st USSS wasn't engaged at Antietam. Dozens of infantry regiments suffered far worse across many more field than the USSS.

My recollection is that accuracy contests between the best marksmen in various units were common. Shooting contests also occurred before the war. If the Berdan men did not have formal training, they certainly had experience and aptitude before joining the unit. However shooting a man at 250 yards is quite different than shooting at a target.

Excellent point regarding targets v. battle, the latter being far more difficult to excel in. Shooting practice and contests were quite common in the USSS, I just reject Nosworthy's notion that they tirelessly labored for months on basic aspects of their craft. They were already quite adept at sharpshooting, and the Sharps Rifle was very user friendly. They needed training as soldiers, not sharpshooting. Nosworthy, a Napoleonic expert, seems to have assumed the USSS had the same training and European sharpshooters. There's just not enough in the record to sustain such a notion, and Nosworthy did not cite any primary source to back up his conclusion (I confirmed that the other day).

A New York news story in 1861 noted the aftermath of USSS target shooting at Weehawken. 48 USSS members each took a shot at a target shaped like a man. 44 rounds were covered by an 8-inch circle placed over the target after the last shot. Another went right between the eyes. The remaning three were close to the heart. Ouch!!!

But I don't want to give away all my fave stories about the USSS. You'll all have to wait for my book!

 

[Specster]

Not that I'm Einstein, but I never saw a reference to Hythe or Vincennes in any primary source document I've ever seen on the USSS after spending a good chunk of the last two years studying the words of USSS members. Never in any letter or story about them did anyone say they "spent months laboriously mastering" whatever. This is the only reference I've ever seen to such a system of training. Most of them didn't get Sharps Rifles, the preferred weapon of the USSS, until well into 1862, long after their camp of instruction. They didn't have months to train on them. They didn't need that much time anyway. Range finding with a Sharps wasn't complicated. They didn't need months to master it. Can you find me a cite of a USSS member himself talking about how complicated it was? I haven't seen any.

There are a lot of myths about the USSS out there. I suggest Nosworthy is propagating another one here unless I see primary source info out there. What did he cite to promote the statement you provide?

Unless you are actually taget shooting at these ranges....have actually done it, I think most of the comments are rediculous. I dont know how many times I have read about the father who's sons had been executed by Union Soldiewrs and I picked off US navy personnel on the Mississippi at over 1000 yards with a smooth bore......that is just silly. Try to see a person at 1/2 mile, never mind hitting them on a moving boat..I believe the shooters name was Hindsale

 

[Specster]

This is a 1000 yardshot with a 1942 Russian Rifled sniper rifle with no one shooting at the "Sniper". The bullet is falling over 31 feet in its 1.5 second flight. This guy is shooting repeatedly at a stationary target, is an expert marks man and still having trouble hitting the target. Tell me this was a makable shot in 1862 and I will tend to disagree...even using a "Sharps" rifle and period ammo the tolerances had to be far weaker than a 1942 rifle and round

 

[Specster]

One of the accounts is actually the history of the US Sharpshooters!

and.......? History is usually written by the victors

 

[Saphroneth]

and.......? History is usually written by the victors

Which simply raises the question as to what source you would consider to be reputable. Accounts of individual sharpshooting black men working for the Confederacy are quite present. They're reported at the Siege of Yorktown (by Berdan's men), at Fort Wagner (by a member of the 4th NH), one is reported by a member of the 17th Maine, a member of the 13th IN reports one at Suffolk, and of course there's Holt Collier.

Were they numerous? Certainly not - many of them may well have been Native American or of mixed Native American and African-descended lineage - but they' have stood out for a very obvious reason.

(information from The History Of Sniping And Sharpshooting)

 

[Sgt. Tyree]

I dont know how many times I have read about the father who's sons had been executed by Union Soldiewrs and I picked off US navy personnel on the Mississippi at over 1000 yards with a smooth bore......that is just silly. Try to see a person at 1/2 mile, never mind hitting them on a moving boat..I believe the shooters name was Hindsale

Hinson. Jack Hinson. I believe his story is pretty well validated.

He didn't use a smoothbore. He had a special rifle made for the task.

When the riverboats were struggling upstream, there was a spot where they were almost stopped. I believe the range was said to be "about" half a mile, so somewhere around 880 yards.

Adelbert "Bert" Waldron made a 900 yard shot, albeit scoped, from a moving boat in Vietnam.

The Leech Cup is a 1000 yard competition with open sights.

So it's doable. Rare, to be sure, but there are men who can do it. So the question for me has to be, "Why should I think Jack Hinson wasn't one of the men who could do it?"

 

[Saphroneth]

The Brits actually did tests of this kind of thing, and 1st class shots could get correct shots for range and reasonable for bearing with a .577 Enfield about 25% of the time at 900 yards (i.e. they could hit ten 6 foot targets next to one another at abou that hit rate). The .451 Kerr and Whitworth rifles had much higher sectional density and had significantly better accuracy over that kind of range.