What is this? Roundel on 1853 Enfield

[ConfederateCanuck]

Hi folks. Just picked up a British Military P1853 Enfield. All the markings indicate it's British Military (will post pics later). Lock is 1861 Crown/V.R ... but what I am curious about is the roundel on the buttstock. Can anyone definitively identify this?

ASIDE: The big "1" apparently means it's a first class weapon.

 

[UCVRelics]

That is the mark of the London Armoury Company.

 

[Old Soldier]

London Armoury Company? Not too sure about that the roundels differ so much,but it is rare to find only LONDON visible

They were late in starting production for the Confederates as they were finishing a sub-contract for Enfield. This may be well one of those. it will NOT have been used in the Civil War as no government weapons were sold on. LACo should be on the lock, if not, it may well be an in-service repair, or the LAC may be inside the lockplate with ENFIELD on the outside.

It is unusual to find LAC on all components for military contracts as these would have inspectors stamps. LAC were the only civilian manufacturer that was sub-contracted at the time as their P53s were made to Enfield standards and components were compatible.

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

Thanks UCV...are you sure? Every LAC roundel I've seen has a date in the middle of the circle and the word London appears in the left side of the circle. Do they have variants of their roundel? The name stamped onto the inside of the lock, the underside of the barrel, and on the ramrod channel of the stock is Beckwith. According to The English Connection, Beckwith did make 1853s but it doesn't specify if he made them for the military or civilian markets.

The most common British Inspection markings on metal parts is Crown/12 and Crown/14.

The lock has Crown/V.R and 1861 Tower (no makers name on the face of the lock, but there is a military inspectors crown punched into it)

A related issue...by 1861, weren't all British military 1853s being made by LAC and the Royal Small Arms Factory (RSAF)? Did LAC or RSAF outsource some of their work in 1861?

One more thing....I "see" a crown inside the roundel of my gun (tilted with the top of the crown at the 11 o'clock position). Does anyone else "see" that?

Compare also to this....could my roundel be a variant on this Pimlico roundel (where they did repairs, I believe)? Maybe there was another such government facility in London that inspected and had the word London in the roundel, and the crown in my roundel having the W O (or B O) and broad arrow below the crown similar to the Pimlico roundel?

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

RSAF roundel... but did they have an earlier variant? In my roundel, you can almost "see" the left and right edges of the "box" that you see below contains the word Enfield. Speculation based on imprints in the wood, I realize....I am just wondering if other roundel variants may have existed in 1861. My roundel most certainly does not match the one below.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

This is not a comment based of my knowledge about this particular mark, but I always remember that "LONDON" denotes quality to buyers, so that word was stamped on many arms that never got closer than several thousand miles away from Britain, let alone London!!

 

[UCVRelics]

Thanks UCV...are you sure?

Not Really as I was on my phone. The only other London mark I have seen is the LSA it does have the crown I can just make out and the London is in the center

 

[Old Soldier]

RSAF roundel... but did they have an earlier variant? In my roundel, you can almost "see" the left and right edges of the "box" that you see below contains the word Enfield. Speculation based on imprints in the wood, I realize....I am just wondering if other roundel variants may have existed in 1861. My roundel most certainly does not match the one below.

View attachment 505792

Enfield's roundel at this time was just 'ENFIELD'. London Small Arms (LSA) wasn't formed until 1866, buying up LAC's machinery.

Gun maker Henry Beckwith was situated at 58 Skinner Street, London, famous for quality pistols and longarms. If it is an issue gun I will have NO civilian proofs and the acceptance mark (Crown over arrow) on the lock and barrel.

What proofs are on the barrel (left of breech)?

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

Note the partial Crown inspector mark on the face of the lockplate...

Military proofs on barrel...

 

[Old Soldier]

Issue proofing, so a service rifle - Class 1. The partial inspectors mark on the lock plate is unusual and usually much closer to the date. It has no 'sold out of service' stamps or any sign of unserviceable markings.

 

[johan_steele]

This was an interchangeable arm. It's had 150 years to be messed with. It likely has gone through an armorer's hands while in service plus civilian.

There are those today who will repair and refurbish to sell on. A complete P53 is more valuable than a sporterized one. It's not difficult to find original parts and put things together. All practitioners of this are not the same. I've helped restore/repair two original P53, a Lorenz and several M1861.

I wonder if that's not what you have. A repair or put together from disassociated original parts.

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

This was an interchangeable arm. It's had 150 years to be messed with. It likely has gone through an armorer's hands while in service plus civilian.

There are those today who will repair and refurbish to sell on. A complete P53 is more valuable than a sporterized one. It's not difficult to find original parts and put things together. All practitioners of this are not the same. I've helped restore/repair two original P53, a Lorenz and several M1861.

I wonder if that's not what you have. A repair or put together from disassociated original parts.

All the major components are marked Beckwith...lock, stock, and barrel. Doesn't sound like a mishmash job.

 

[johan_steele]

All the major components are marked Beckwith...lock, stock, and barrel. Doesn't sound like a mishmash job.

You're right. I hadn't seen your last post. I wrote it yesterday and forgot the post reply button until I booted up this morning.

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

You're right. I hadn't seen your last post. I wrote it yesterday and forgot the post reply button until I booted up this morning.

No worries...sometimes I skim through multiple posts and miss important details, then open my big yap.........

Been busy, so apologies for not posting more pics...will try to do so this afternoon.

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

Ok, so here are more pics (but no surprise, it looks like all other 1853 Enfield's..haha). Overall, in very nice condition by my standards. We bought this not only cuz of the outward appearance, but because the barrel has decent rifling. The guns we buy we buy to shoot. This one is going to get some 300 yard shooting time, and will be used to hunt deer, as well.

As I said, lock, stock, and barrel are all stamped Beckwith, but I noticed that there's also a Potts&Hunt stamp on the inside of the lockplate along with Beckwith...I guess Beckwith contracted out for the lock.

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

So, I have been cleaning up the gun, and I have a clearer picture of the roundel ...and I can make more sense of it.

Within the roundel, one can see a Crown at top, a broad arrow below it and a very clear O to the right of the arrow. There would normally be a letter to the left of the arrow that should be a B. Many of us know that the B-arrow-O is the British Military Board of Ordnance military acceptance mark. The word London is clear in the outer portion of the roundel so this was undoubtedly a London-based government inspection facility...but what are the missing words on the roundel? How many government inspection houses were there?...does anyone know? There was a government inspection facility in the Tower of London, but what was their roundel? The picture doesn't quite capture it but with my jeweller's goggles I can see TOWER to the left of LONDON....squint and you can see a faint TO, the W is obscured by the wood grain, then a really faint E and a much clearer R. So we have TOWER LONDON in the top half of the outer roundel, but can't make anything out in the bottom half...any idea what the missing words might be or maybe there were no other words? It looks like there may have been another word in the bottom right (it looks like there is an illegible character there).

This is not a PIMLICO roundel, which was the government repair facility.

 

[Old Soldier]

TOWER LONDON goes along with all the other information you have - a London consortium produced P53 for the British government. The Board of Ordnance (BO) died out in 1855 to be replaced with the War Department WD, but the arrow remained and a W replaced the B on the older stamps. There appears to be a faint W to the side of the arrow on yours. Underneath would be the date - like this one:

The Classification '1' is off centre on yours, hence the confusion.

BTW - This site is doing MY research and database a world of good!

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

TOWER LONDON goes along with all the other information you have - a London consortium produced P53 for the British government. The Board of Ordnance (BO) died out in 1855 to be replaced with the War Department WD, but the arrow remained and a W replaced the B on the older stamps. There appears to be a faint W to the side of the arrow on yours. Underneath would be the date - like this one:

View attachment 505982

The Classification '1' is off centre on yours, hence the confusion.

BTW - This site is doing MY research and database a world of good!

You found the roundel I was looking for!!!!!!! AWESOME!!! I had wondered if a date would be in the bottom half of the outer circle, but I really didn't want to speculate...THANK YOU, THANK YOU! You have renewed my faith in the Forums.

Is this roundel from one of your guns, or did you find it online? I have googled and googled to no avail...if its from something online, please share the link. Do you have any good links to information on British military markings or anything on 1853 Enfield production? Anything you would be willing to share would be greatly appreciated!

 

[JackADriscoll]

British 1853 Pattern Tower Enfield 3 Band Percussion Rifle, dated 1858. Unit marked, with Sling - Sally Antiques

*British 1853 Pattern Tower Enfield 3 Band Percussion Rifle, dated 1858. Unit marked. With Sling* The Enfield Pattern 1853 3-band Percussion Hammer Action

sallyantiques.co.uk

British Military Pattern 1856 No 2 Bar on Band Enfield Short Rifle

British Military Pattern 1856 No 2 Bar on Band Enfield Short Rifle

collegehillarsenal.com

 

[Old Soldier]

You found the roundel I was looking for!!!!!!! AWESOME!!! I had wondered if a date would be in the bottom half of the outer circle, but I really didn't want to speculate...THANK YOU, THANK YOU! You have renewed my faith in the Forums.

Is this roundel from one of your guns, or did you find it online? I have googled and googled to no avail...if its from something online, please share the link. Do you have any good links to information on British military markings or anything on 1853 Enfield production? Anything you would be willing to share would be greatly appreciated!

To be honest it was a chance 'image search' find - and upside down. These are usually from adverts of one sort or another or complicated specialist sites. An excellent site for information is, as most would guess, is Tim Prince's College Hill Arsenal https://collegehillarsenal.com/ complete with photos and a quite detailed background and description (look in 'previously sold' - some 105 pages so far!).

There was one for British weapons of this era, but it now looks to be unavailable.

British longarms and pistols are my interest and I have extended that to anything blockade-busting As I said earlier, my database is growing both for 'official' government weapons and civilian production of military pattern longarms. I cannot afford the expensive ones, but I have renovated a number of cheaper ones - display only (but I HATE a dirty bore!) from this era.