Revolver Question

[archieclement]

What about troops on extended garrison duty, might they have acquired handguns? Particularly garrison artillery might remain in place.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I don't completely buy that story about Infantry throwing away or getting rid of knives and pistols because their weight interfered with their marching. These were young healthy men who could put up with a few pounds of iron.

The citations regarding the cast offs along roadsides would fill a library book shelf. Peddlers followed the columns collecting the detritus for resale.

An easy citation to find is when Grant advanced on Fort Donelson. Naively assuming the pleasant weather was what Southern winters are like, soldiers threw away their great coats.

They had a rude introduction into how extremely changeable the weather could be. Sutlers who had collected up the coats were happy to sell them back to the original owners.

Col. Fremantle observed a review of Hardee's corps in the spring of 1863. He noted that even though a fresh set of uniforms had been issued, the soldiers displayed remarkable individuality. Multi colored shirts from home & hats blocked to fit the taste of the wearer drew his attention. When he asked, he was told that the men absolutely refused to carry bayonets. There was, however, one item he noted that everyone had: a toothbrush tucked into a buttonhole.

 

[Rhea Cole]

There must have been some people who made a killing by following marching armies and picking up waterproof pouches.

There were bitter complaints at the exorbitant prices "Jews" (meaning rag pickers, not the religion) charged for free army supplies.

 

[Pollaco]

I am certain things did get "lost". I still can't see too many southern boys throwing away any workable gun, knife, or bayonet.There was a market for such things, sell it cheap to a sucker. Why throw away when you could make a few bucks?

 

[Old Soldier]

Perhaps there is some confusion because of the loads. The original Colt .45 used 28 to 40 grains of black powder. Much smaller loads of smokeless powder are used.

But the pistols of the day were not built to contain the chamber pressures of smokeless. It is like comparing a Springfield M1861 with a M1 Garand!

 

[Rhea Cole]

I am certain things did get "lost". I still can't see too many southern boys throwing away any workable gun, knife, or bayonet.There was a market for such things, sell it cheap to a sucker. Why throw away when you could make a few bucks?

U.S. signalists were mounted. They were issued sabers & pistols. It takes two years to master saber drill… self inflicted wounds & lopped off horse ears soon put an end to the random drills. Only garrisons kept them up.

There was, in fact, a very practical use for sabers. Stick the blade into the ground & a saber's guard makes a very handy telescope rest.

There are a remarkable number of actions were signalists have their pay docked for "loosing" their pistols. Courts Marshall proceedings against men who sold their pistols are common, as well.

My favorite signalist pistol story began at the fortified signal station at Franklin. Assigned to escort a supply convoy to Nashville, the signalists were fraught with anxiety.

There was real concern about their rusted up pistols. Nobody was sure which way the pistol would fire if they pulled the trigger, "…committing execution regardless…"

I have actually endured a long drive to a lawyer bing history event with two determined debaters on the relative lethality of pistol shots. Had the rest of us had access to our pistols & edged weapons a practical demonstration on the side of the road would have ensued.

Page 391 of " Iowa Valor" is a valued citation on the subject.

 

[Kurtlg]

But the pistols of the day were not built to contain the chamber pressures of smokeless. It is like comparing a Springfield M1861 with a M1 Garand!

No doubt the metallurgy changed. The design of my 3rd generation Colt single action army is nearly identical to the original. Also if you reduce the charge of smokeless ( 8 to 5 grains) would it be safe to fire in an original ? I don't know and if I was lucky enough to own a 1st gen I would never try it.

 

[Sowbelly and Hardtack]

I don't completely buy that story about Infantry throwing away or getting rid of knives and pistols because their weight interfered with their marching. These were young healthy men who could put up with a few pounds of iron.

A soldier/marine quickly learns what to carry and what not to carry in combat. While the wars and technology changes, getting rid of unnecessary weight hasn't. It's not just about the weight, it's also about how one's combat load sits. If a Civil War soldier was worried about weight then he should have carried my combat load or the combat load of any infantryman who served in Iraq or Afghanistan. Those who served in Vietnam were healthier than those who served in the Civil War. Healthcare and conditioning has improved since I was last in combat.

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA212050.pdf

"LOADS CARRIED BY SOLDIERS: HISTORICAL, PHYSIOLOGICAL, BIOMECHANICAL AND MEDICAL ASPECTS
U S ARMY RESEARCH INSTITUTE OF
ENVIRONMENTAL MEDICINE
Natick, Massachusetts
JUNE 1989"

The US Military Must Lighten Warfighters’ Loads

Five suggestions to reduce injury and increase combat efficiency.

www.defenseone.com

"The US Military Must Lighten Warfighters' Loads
Five suggestions to reduce injury and increase combat efficiency."

 

[Joe Whitworth]

But the pistols of the day were not built to contain the chamber pressures of smokeless. It is like comparing a Springfield M1861 with a M1 Garand!

To argue with American firearms enthusiasts about guns you need to do your homework a bit better. Check some handloading manuals for safe loading data for those oldtimers. BTW your SMLE's are ugly too but you guys made some beautiful motorcycles, I had 2 Triumphs, a Bonneville and a Trident way back when before going with Harleys. In the meantime I'm stepping out my door to my shooting bench to shoot some guns on a sunny afternoon.

 

[Brokenbear]

Well folks I can agree stuff was chucked on the march ..for sure during the ACW as the ratio of unfired to fired projectiles discovered relic hunting on my part favors the unfired ..especially when a lot of rivers were forded ..makes the act of pitching Gov't property much easier to get by the ole' Sarge .

But I agree that a valuable though heavy would more likely be bartered than trashed

I did not go back to dig up the comment about smokeless powder in small amounts safe in black powder guns but PLEASE do not do that without some serious study time ...
There are lots of dynamics of interior ballistics that single and double based smokeless powders exhibit that non professionals are not aware of ..you can by accident create a "perfect storm" with reduced loads or choosing the wrong smokeless that would be incorrect for being at or below black powder pressure amount, pressure curve sharpness and velocity ..today's modern smokeless factory ammunition that is loaded into cartridges whose life started as a black powder cartridge have been done so by carefully crafting a smokeless powder that considers chamber diameter/capacity, bore diameter, projectile weight, peak pressure + where that peak pressure occurs not to mention powder charge density (% of powder volume to case capacity)

Unlike Brylcream where a little dab will do ya ..a pinch of powder in a great big cartridge case CAN at times ..not be a good thing!!!

Bear

 

[Joe Whitworth]

Well folks I can agree stuff was chucked on the march ..for sure during the ACW as the ratio of unfired to fired projectiles discovered relic hunting on my part favors the unfired ..especially when a lot of rivers were forded ..makes the act of pitching Gov't property much easier to get by the ole' Sarge .

But I agree that a valuable though heavy would more likely be bartered than trashed

I did not go back to dig up the comment about smokeless powder in small amounts safe in black powder guns but PLEASE do not do that without some serious study time ...
There are lots of dynamics of interior ballistics that single and double based smokeless powders exhibit that non professionals are not aware of ..you can by accident create a "perfect storm" with reduced loads or choosing the wrong smokeless that would be incorrect for being at or below black powder pressure amount, pressure curve sharpness and velocity ..today's modern smokeless factory ammunition that is loaded into cartridges whose life started as a black powder cartridge have been done so by carefully crafting a smokeless powder that considers chamber diameter/capacity, bore diameter, projectile weight, peak pressure + where that peak pressure occurs not to mention powder charge density (% of powder volume to case capacity)

Unlike Brylcream where a little dab will do ya ..a pinch of powder in a great big cartridge case CAN at times ..not be a good thing!!!

Bear

You Sir are a wise and knowledgeable man.

 

[Old Soldier]

To argue with American firearms enthusiasts about guns you need to do your homework a bit better. Check some handloading manuals for safe loading data for those oldtimers. BTW your SMLE's are ugly too but you guys made some beautiful motorcycles, I had 2 Triumphs, a Bonneville and a Trident way back when before going with Harleys. In the meantime I'm stepping out my door to my shooting bench to shoot some guns on a sunny afternoon.

You can make the most beautiful gun in the world - but if it doesn't do the job it was designed for - it is USELESS.

 

[Joe Whitworth]

You can make the most beautiful gun in the world - but if it doesn't do the job it was designed for - it is USELESS.

I didn't say they weren't effective, I've got one, it's just not a Mauser or a Springfield in the looks department

 

[Rhea Cole]

Not everyone in this thread is conversant with 1860's model cap & ball revolvers. A very small charge of black powder was loaded into a chamber, bullet put on top & then seated using a lever & piston mounted beneath the barrel. A lubricant sealed each chamber.

Caps were then pushed down on the nipples.

It was possible to carry extra loaded cylinders. As you can see, switching cylinders while mounted or under duress was problematic.

The rear sight of the Colt is a notch cut into the hammer. It could only be seen when the hammer was at full cock.

There are a host of factors that militate against a round impacting a particular point down range. Often the cylinder does not index exactly with the barrel. The scrapes of hot lead & flame hurt like ^#+*•! Needless to say, the distorted ball has diverse aerodynamics.

Whatever the varieties of modern propellants may be, in the Civil War it was black powder that was loaded into pistol cylinders.

Bottom line is that the expansion of a black powder detonation is subsonic. Kinetic Energy = 1/2 mass X Velocity Squared. The nasty crack of a modern pistol shot is a sonic boom caused by the trans sonic velocity of the bullet.

I know people who fire finely tuned reproduction Civil War cap & ball pistols accurately. That is not what a trooper on a skittish horse was doing.

If all this is new to you, don't feel bad. In "Dances With Wolves" the lead character's pistol pouches are upside down. Had he actually tried to reload, everything would have fallen to the ground… no doubt to the delight of a metal detector.

 

[Rhea Cole]

To argue with American firearms enthusiasts about guns you need to do your homework a bit better. Check some handloading manuals for safe loading data for those oldtimers. BTW your SMLE's are ugly too but you guys made some beautiful motorcycles, I had 2 Triumphs, a Bonneville and a Trident way back when before going with Harleys. In the meantime I'm stepping out my door to my shooting bench to shoot some guns on a sunny afternoon.

As you rightly point out this is a Civil War forum, discussion of the armaments of the War of Jenkin's Ear belongs somewhere else.

 

[Joe Whitworth]

As you rightly point out this is a Civil War forum, discussion of the armaments of the War of Jenkin's Ear belongs somewhere else.

Duly noted, now please oil that poor pistol in the pictures.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Duly noted, now please oil that poor pistol in the pictures.

Thank you for noticing. That Colt is a prop for my Signal Corp program. How could I ever tell my great tale about the rusted up revolvers with an oiled up Colt in my hand?

 

[Rhea Cole]

Thank you for noticing. That Colt is a prop for my Signal Corp program. How could I ever tell my great tale about the rusted up revolvers with an oiled up Colt in my hand?

To tell you the truth, after a three day living history event, that pistol hanging off my side gave me a nasty backache. I learned to leave the pistol on the table & stick my cell phone into the holster.

It is absolutely dishonorable, but us signal corps types can live with the shame.

Note: I traded a pocket knife for that abused Colt. I cleaned it up & it has served for over twenty years. It shoots every direction but where I aimed it… at a certain point it was too terrifying & I haven't fired it since.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I am certain things did get "lost". I still can't see too many southern boys throwing away any workable gun, knife, or bayonet.There was a market for such things, sell it cheap to a sucker. Why throw away when you could make a few bucks?

There isn't any mystery about both Southern & Northern soldiers throwing away things that are proven to be useless. You can argue with Col. Fremantle all you want, but Army of Tennessee soldiers did refuse to encumber themselves with bayonets. I don't know who would be in the market for discarded bayonets, perhaps you can provide a citation I can add to my Army of Tennessee folder.

 

[Pollaco]

I don't think I'd have gone as far as using the word "useless".