Replacement parts

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Peter Stines

Sergeant
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Location
Gulf Coast of Texas
Hi peter,
Good advice on the powder. I already have ir soaking in PB blaster, will that do the job?
What do you mean by a re-conversion?
Are you saying to check the threads on the screw that tightens the jaw on the flint?
I was hoping to get the ball (obstruction) out with out damaging it. Looks like that's not an option.
Thanx
Dj
In this case a re-conversion is a gun that was originally flint and changed or converted to percussion use. The flint cock, frizzen, pan, etc all were removed and the corresponding screw holes were plugged or filled in. The flint vent was either plugged and a nipple installed on top of the barrel ("Belgic conversion) or a percussion bolster brazed over the old vent. A few even used a "drum and nipple" conversion by enlarging the old flint vent and threading it to take a drum. (That's more of a civilian conversion but it was still used) A lot of this was done in 1850's and early 60's. Take a peek at Craig Berry's book for more detail. Re-conversions were done in recent times, being that the gun was altered or converted back to flintlock. This is a controversial act to some. (A few consider it sacrilege) Sometimes modern made cast parts are installed or even original parts are used. Since a good many flintlocks were altered, finding one that is still in original flint configuration is a bit rare. In some cases, reconversions are the only way a collector can obtain a certain gun in flint. I've discussed this in other threads.
 

GPW1942

Private
Joined
Oct 8, 2019
Ok, so I have been looking on line, lots of pictures.
Is it wrong to want to clean the Harpers Ferry up? Recommendations on what or what not to do? I believe there are dates on the breach plug (not sure where) stampings on the barrel to look for?
I do not see any modifications to the barrel. Does the frizzel look pretty well used?

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Peter Stines

Sergeant
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Location
Gulf Coast of Texas
So the threads on the Harpers Ferry do not match any gauges I have. It falls in between 20 and 24 standard and 1 and 1.25 metric. There is a B stamped on the back and an R S stamped on the top piece.
I forgot to ask if the butt stock on the flintlock has a dished out area on the left side. If it does, then you probably have a Model 1812 musket. This was the only one ever made with a cheek cutout. I'll scan a few things from my books and post. Yep, some of those screw threads were odd ball pitch. Some original guns used metric threads but other screws were standard. We copied the French muskets and those used metric pitch. Both guns look they are in good condition. I wish I could find goodies like these in junk stores. I did find a cut down and converted 1816 Evans contract musket in a junk store. I paid $150 for it. The lock alone was worth that!
 
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Peter Stines

Sergeant
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Apr 10, 2007
Location
Gulf Coast of Texas
The frizzen looks like it's seen use but I'm a little leery about the pan. It doesn't show much pitting while the breech of the barrel does. Some musket pans were detachable and could be replaced if needed. The 1816 musket is an example. Brass pan held with screws instead of brazed or forged in place. It looks like the vent is plugged with dirt/mud and or rust. Mud daubers can get inside the barrel and build a nest.
 

James N.

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Something like this is what probably was done to your musket: the pan cut down, a nipple (missing on this example) placed directly onto/into the barrel, and cock replaced with a percussion-type hammer. Welcome to the forums, and nice buys nevertheless!
 

GPW1942

Private
Joined
Oct 8, 2019
I forgot to ask if the butt stock on the flintlock has a dished out area on the left side. If it does, then you probably have a Model 1812 musket. This was the only one ever made with a cheek cutout. I'll scan a few things from my books and post. Yep, some of those screw threads were odd ball pitch. Some original guns used metric threads but other screws were standard. We copied the French muskets and those used metric pitch. Both guns look they are in good condition. I wish I could find goodies like these in junk stores. I did find a cut down and converted 1816 Evans contract musket in a junk store. I paid $150 for it. The lock alone was worth that!
Hi, The left and right side look the same on the stock.
I think I might need to have the breach plug removed and push out what ever is in the barrel. I would like to salvage it if it is an old ball.
 
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GPW1942

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Oct 8, 2019
View attachment 329267

Something like this is what probably was done to your musket: the pan cut down, a nipple (missing on this example) placed directly onto/into the barrel, and cock replaced with a percussion-type hammer. Welcome to the forums, and nice buys nevertheless!
I don't think so, Pan is there and no damage to the barrel.
 

GPW1942

Private
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Oct 8, 2019
Ok, So I decided to start disassembling it. See pics. Pan is part of the sideplate. One casting. I did notice OHIO stamped on the barrel by the plug with what looks like a U under it. Should I try to clean it up???

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James N.

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I don't think so, Pan is there and no damage to the barrel.
I meant assuming that what Package4 said about it being a re-conversion was correct, as I too think likely. A friend of mine wanted an example of an 1816 that didn't cost a fortune and that he might use for Mexican War-era reenacting, plus an excuse to try out his gunsmithing abilities, and he did a very acceptable reconversion of one he'd picked up cheap.
The hammer does not match the piece, indicating that it could be a reconversion, this means that the piece was converted to percussion and then reconverted to Flint at a later date for collector value.
 
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Peter Stines

Sergeant
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Apr 10, 2007
Location
Gulf Coast of Texas
Hmm, something is fishy. The pan doesn't look like it was tampered with. And no dished out stock. I'll do some more checking and see what gives. If you can ship the barrel, get with Mike Lea in Columbus Ohio. He's a first rate Black Powder gunsmith. He can also examine the lock and see if all is well. Mike doesn't have a website and I don't have his phone # handy but you can probably find him using his name and Columbus Ohio as key word search. Just by looking at the plugged up vent, you might just have mud in the breech. Let us know if you get it cleared.
 

Story

Sergeant Major
Joined
Aug 5, 2011
Location
SE PA
Something like this is what probably was done to your musket: the pan cut down, a nipple (missing on this example) placed directly onto/into the barrel, and cock replaced with a percussion-type hammer.
That's a Type III conversion.

I'd suggest it's more likely a drum conversion reconverted to flintlock.

Look inside the red circle and you can see the faint outline of either 1) a touchhole liner or 2) what I think is more likely, the remains of a percussion drum conversion cut off flush with the side of the barrel.

GJqGfQA.jpg
 

Peter Stines

Sergeant
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Location
Gulf Coast of Texas
Okay I did some more research. According to Major Jas. Hick's book, you do indeed have a Model 1812 musket. Some that were made at Harpers Ferry did not have the cheek cut out on the left side of the butt stock. Those were sent to the many private contractors (like Eli Whitney) as patterns to copy. The OHIO stamp on the barrel probably indicates that it was sent to the Ohio State Arsenal after the War of 1812. Many states stockpiled muskets (usually contract pieces) for an emergency. This pattern may have seen use in the hands of volunteers or militia during the Black Hawk Indian War or one of the Seminole Wars.
The internal lock parts look to be in good shape. The frizzen screw juts out a bit too much. Can you screw it in all the way ? If not, it might be a replacement. According to original sources o
That's a Type III conversion.

I'd suggest it's more likely a drum conversion reconverted to flintlock.

Look inside the red circle and you can see the faint outline of either 1) a touchhole liner or 2) what I think is more likely, the remains of a percussion drum conversion cut off flush with the side of the barrel.

View attachment 329762
Thanks for the enlarged image. Didn't notice that. It could also be a period "re-bushing" of the old vent when it became enlarged. It was bored out and tapped for threads and a corresponding plug installed and drilled for a vent. The pitting around this plug makes me think that way.
ne of the most commonly replaced gun parts in the field were screws.
 
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GPW1942

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Oct 8, 2019
Wow you guys are great. Love the info.
So today was exciting. I took it to a good friend and gun smith to get it unloaded.
During the disassembly we found quite a few makers marks on the barrel, bolts, spring. I'll post some pics.
It was indeed loaded and power still burned. No we didn't try to fire it. lol Vent hole was blocked solid.
Made a large ball puller. What we found was a patch, 19th century bird shot, a patch, and power.
Barrel is in a sonic cleaner with soapy water tonight so as not to ruin the patina.
Could not find a date on the breach plug. Also could not get it out.

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Peter Stines

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Apr 10, 2007
Location
Gulf Coast of Texas
If you got it cleared, then I'd leave the breech plug alone. See what we mean when we say it might still be loaded. I bought a Pomeroy contract 1816 musket from Dixie Gun Works many moons ago and IT WAS LOADED WITH POWDER, NEWSPAPER WAD and SHOT! I let them know about it !!!! If you don't mind me asking, what did you pay for these two treasures ?
 

James N.

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Wow you guys are great. Love the info.
So today was exciting. I took it to a good friend and gun smith to get it unloaded.
During the disassembly we found quite a few makers marks on the barrel, bolts, spring. I'll post some pics.
It was indeed loaded and power still burned. No we didn't try to fire it. lol Vent hole was blocked solid.
Made a large ball puller. What we found was a patch, 19th century bird shot, a patch, and power.
Barrel is in a sonic cleaner with soapy water tonight so as not to ruin the patina.
Could not find a date on the breach plug. Also could not get it out.
You may already know this, but in case you don't those Roman numerals cut into the various parts are called bench marks and were used as a means of numbering parts as the gun was being assembled from its components during the manufacturing process. If the gun hasn't been "messed with", they should all match.
 
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GPW1942

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If you got it cleared, then I'd leave the breech plug alone. See what we mean when we say it might still be loaded. I bought a Pomeroy contract 1816 musket from Dixie Gun Works many moons ago and IT WAS LOADED WITH POWDER, NEWSPAPER WAD and SHOT! I let them know about it !!!! If you don't mind me asking, what did you pay for these two treasures ?
I'm thinking I did well. it was $1350 for the two. What ever I get
 
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Peter Stines

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Any ideas what the N V G.M. mean on the back side of the lock? Of the B on the hammer?
The "B" inside the hammer is an inspector mark. Just like so many of the other marks on the gun. Not sure about the NVGM. "M" could mean "militia" "VG" might mean "volunteer guard" A search of Ohio volunteer/guard troops prior to the 1850's might tell the tale. At least it doesn't have "Made in Japan" "Marx Toys" or "Dixie Gun Works" stamped on it. :bounce:
 
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