Regimental Flags

[G Low]

I was looking at my ancestors regimental flag on display in the Kennesaw Mt. battle field Museum in Georgia.It has Cherokee Dragoons on it , The motto on top says "EITHER WITH IT OR UP ON IT". I've been reading about it, it goes way back to Spartan Soldiers saying that they will return with their shield or be carried dead back home upon it. This flag is two sided with the original Confederate flag on the other side. What other mottos were used on other regimental flags and were there many two sided flags.

 

[Flag Guy]

About that Texas Lone Star Flag, there was a red flag with two white stars before the Tejas revolution. One star for Tejas and one for Sonora or Chihuahua or one of those Mexican states. Tejas kept the red flag and white star design but with only one star. At Valverde and Glorietta and those New Mexico actions the Confederates carried that particular flag. How that became the new Texas flag I'm not sure. Both were used in 1862 in different theatres. I have no info on when the red lone star flag was retired. I wonder what Gen. Green flew when this troops went to Louisiana. Poor Ol' Tom lost his head at Jenkins Ferry I think. Cavalry against gunboats didn't work out so well for him.
Cheers!

Can you please cite a source for that flag being on the New Mexico Campaign? I would like to have that. Some of the TX flags used there were First Nationals. The lancers had red pennants on their lances. Regarding the Texas republic flag the first design was blue with a lone star in the center with T-E-X-A-S placed around it. Got voted down by the republic legislature. The modern state flag is the 1839 design which I post here. There is also an 1835 design which I post a drawing of from their state archives - never made so far as I know. I post also a Texas secession flag drawing based on a period description and the flags of the Texas Navy drawing. Robert Maberry's book, "Texas Flags," which I contributed to, is the definitive source of Texas flags.

 

[Flag Guy]

The Texas Navy also used this flag - identical to the secession flag flown in Pensacola, Florida.

 

[Flag Guy]

The Texas Navy also used this flag - identical to the secession flag flown in Pensacola, Florida.

Sorry - forgot to post the flag.

 

[Flag Guy]

Yes indeed. Good clean goofy fun.

When I lived in LA years ago I used to run into him all the time. Nice guy - loaded with musical knowledge too!

 

[Trooper "D"]

I had read that it was named for Andres Pico, a state senator, Mexican War veteran and the author of the Pico Act to separate southern California from northern.

You may very well be right. Could it be the same guy? Mexican War veteran but on the side of the Californios. My info mostly comes from the Time/Life book series on the old west from the 1970s. Not a real in depth study on the subject.
I moved from San Fernando Valley to Aptos on the Monterey Bay coast just south of Santa Cruz. 1978. That's when I found out that Mr. Pico's act to split the state is alive and well.

 

[Flag Guy]

Manship had a flag painter working with him named Lee Mallary. His name is on the flag on the Duncan Riflemen, CO. A, 3rd Mississippi Battalion. I would think, but am not sure, that Manship turned over the flag business to someone when he became mayor. Jackson did have a QM depot and on an 1862 inventory there are seven flags listed as being in stock - these also fit the time frame of the second Van Dorn patterns.

Here is the Duncan Riflemen flags with Mallary's signature.

 

[Flag Guy]

You may very well be right. Could it be the same guy? Mexican War veteran but on the side of the Californios. My info mostly comes from the Time/Life book series on the old west from the 1970s. Not a real in depth study on the subject.
I moved from San Fernando Valley to Aptos on the Monterey Bay coast just south of Santa Cruz. 1978. That's when I found out that Mr. Pico's act to split the state is alive and well.

It is the same guy based on what I looked up. A lot of the Californios cared little for Mexican rule and so sided with the anglos. You do not have to live in CA long and travel the state to see that north does not like south very much and the feeling is mutual. Would have been interesting had the state split up in the 1850s. One account I found said that three states coming from the one was on the table as well.

 

[Flag Guy]

You may very well be right. Could it be the same guy? Mexican War veteran but on the side of the Californios. My info mostly comes from the Time/Life book series on the old west from the 1970s. Not a real in depth study on the subject.
I moved from San Fernando Valley to Aptos on the Monterey Bay coast just south of Santa Cruz. 1978. That's when I found out that Mr. Pico's act to split the state is alive and well.

There are some articles on the original California Bear flags that I have in my files. The bear changed around a bit from standing to all fours, etc. Location also changed. The red lone star still remains although on the modern flag it is smaller. Here is an article about the flag. https://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=24644

I also attach two images of the flags - one from the 1890s and one from the 1940s when it was discovered and people were trying to figure out when it came out time wise. Lastly one dating to 1870. This was very much created a s a flag of rebellion hence it coming back as such in late 1860 for pro-Southern Californians.

 

[Trooper "D"]

Can you please cite a source for that flag being on the New Mexico Campaign? I would like to have that. Some of the TX flags used there were First Nationals. The lancers had red pennants on their lances. Regarding the Texas republic flag the first design was blue with a lone star in the center with T-E-X-A-S placed around it. Got voted down by the republic legislature. The modern state flag is the 1839 design which I post here. There is also an 1835 design which I post a drawing of from their state archives - never made so far as I know. I post also a Texas secession flag drawing based on a period description and the flags of the Texas Navy drawing. Robert Maberry's book, "Texas Flags," which I contributed to, is the definitive source of Texas flags.

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I believe it is cited in the book Blood and Treasure. There is another book about Sherrod Hunter thatcI cant remember the name of. The cover has an illustration of the 1st National flag on it. Something about Sherrod Hunter and something like "to the sea". I think it was referring to the Confederate designs on carrying the Mason Dixon to the Pacific. I cant remember but it is about Major Hunter and the garrisoning of Tucson and the Arizona actions, the New Mexico Campaign and also the Louisiana engagements with Red River Campaign. There are also a couple of few paintings of Glorietta Pass/Pidgeon Ranch fighting where that flag is shown flying with the Cornfeds.
That's the best I can do for you. I don't own those books nor prints of the paintings.
Cheers!

 

[Trooper "D"]

It is the same guy based on what I looked up. A lot of the Californios cared little for Mexican rule and so sided with the anglos. You do not have to live in CA long and travel the state to see that north does not like south very much and the feeling is mutual. Would have been interesting had the state split up in the 1850s. One account I found said that three states coming from the one was on the table as well.

That's why I used the term Californio instead of Mexican. There was not much in common with Mexico City so far away. Those Spanish land grants were huge and more akin to fiefdoms. Once the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was signed those Californios became U.S. citizens.
Cali had quite a few little disturbances over Secession. Fortuna up near Eureka had a spat over a cannon and San Juan Batista had some ruckus about trying to raise the confederate flag and the militia stopping them. SoCal had quite the southern influence. Cafes used to all serve biscuits and gravy all the way into the '70s at least.
I wonder if the split would have been better? Hmm.

 

[Trooper "D"]

When I lived in LA years ago I used to run into him all the time. Nice guy - loaded with musical knowledge too!

Cool Beans

 

[Trooper "D"]

There are some articles on the original California Bear flags that I have in my files. The bear changed around a bit from standing to all fours, etc. Location also changed. The red lone star still remains although on the modern flag it is smaller. Here is an article about the flag. https://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=24644

I also attach two images of the flags - one from the 1890s and one from the 1940s when it was discovered and people were trying to figure out when it came out time wise. Lastly one dating to 1870. This was very much created a s a flag of rebellion hence it coming back as such in late 1860 for pro-Southern Californians.

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Awesome. Thanks for sharing these. Those pesky Bearflaggers....or is that a groundhog?

 

[Trooper "D"]

Can you please cite a source for that flag being on the New Mexico Campaign? I would like to have that. Some of the TX flags used there were First Nationals. The lancers had red pennants on their lances. Regarding the Texas republic flag the first design was blue with a lone star in the center with T-E-X-A-S placed around it. Got voted down by the republic legislature. The modern state flag is the 1839 design which I post here. There is also an 1835 design which I post a drawing of from their state archives - never made so far as I know. I post also a Texas secession flag drawing based on a period description and the flags of the Texas Navy drawing. Robert Maberry's book, "Texas Flags," which I contributed to, is the definitive source of Texas flags.

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'Pathway to the Pacific' maybe is part of the title. I'll google it.

 

[Flag Guy]

I believe it is cited in the book Blood and Treasure. There is another book about Sherrod Hunter thatcI cant remember the name of. The cover has an illustration of the 1st National flag on it. Something about Sherrod Hunter and something like "to the sea". I think it was referring to the Confederate designs on carrying the Mason Dixon to the Pacific. I cant remember but it is about Major Hunter and the garrisoning of Tucson and the Arizona actions, the New Mexico Campaign and also the Louisiana engagements with Red River Campaign. There are also a couple of few paintings of Glorietta Pass/Pidgeon Ranch fighting where that flag is shown flying with the Cornfeds.
That's the best I can do for you. I don't own those books nor prints of the paintings.
Cheers!

I have "Blood and Treasure" and several other books on this campaign including one that analyses the Texas units involved. I will dig into those deeper. Thanks very much.

 

[Flag Guy]

That's why I used the term Californio instead of Mexican. There was not much in common with Mexico City so far away. Those Spanish land grants were huge and more akin to fiefdoms. Once the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was signed those Californios became U.S. citizens.
Cali had quite a few little disturbances over Secession. Fortuna up near Eureka had a spat over a cannon and San Juan Batista had some ruckus about trying to raise the confederate flag and the militia stopping them. SoCal had quite the southern influence. Cafes used to all serve biscuits and gravy all the way into the '70s at least.
I wonder if the split would have been better? Hmm.

There's a book called "Californio Lancers" about the lancer units raised by them that is interesting and goes into a lot of this.

 

[Flag Guy]

That's why I used the term Californio instead of Mexican. There was not much in common with Mexico City so far away. Those Spanish land grants were huge and more akin to fiefdoms. Once the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was signed those Californios became U.S. citizens.
Cali had quite a few little disturbances over Secession. Fortuna up near Eureka had a spat over a cannon and San Juan Batista had some ruckus about trying to raise the confederate flag and the militia stopping them. SoCal had quite the southern influence. Cafes used to all serve biscuits and gravy all the way into the '70s at least.
I wonder if the split would have been better? Hmm.

Can you cite the source for the San Juan Batista CS flag raising attempt please? I would like to have that for my files if possible.

 

[Trooper "D"]

I have "Blood and Treasure" and several other books on this campaign including one that analyses the Texas units involved. I will dig into those deeper. Thanks very much.

You are quite welcome. I hope I'm remembering correctly. Down at Picacho Peak S. P. around the 11th of March we used to enact 3 battles per day on Sat. and Sun. One was a narrated Picacho skirmish and the other two were Valverde and Glorietta. Cheesy but when we had numbers it was impressive. We flew that red banner with the white star. So somebody looked into what I had expressed and showed up with that flag. At has been a long time since then so we shall see.
Nice chattin' with ya mess mate.
Cheers!

Oh yeah! Major Hunter used the 1st National over Tucson. I wasn't meaning to claim that they Stars and Bars were not present.

 

[Trooper "D"]

There's a book called "Californio Lancers" about the lancer units raised by them that is interesting and goes into a lot of this.

Sorry, I didn't see those posts. "California Lancers" does sound interesting. I know of the engagement east of San Diego with U.S. Dragoons. Those lances were brutal. We used to do a little show at the Great Western Exhibit Center when they had those enormous gun shows. A dirt area along the side of one of the rooms served as the stage and ivy grew all over the chainlink fence behind uss. Cavalcade through History type of event. One guy did the Spanish or Californio mounted lancer thing. Not a toy for sure.

 

[Trooper "D"]

Can you cite the source for the San Juan Batista CS flag raising attempt please? I would like to have that for my files if possible.

Here you got me. Early '80s was the last time I participated in that raisin festival or whatever the event was. I would suggest contacting the Chamber of Commerce and any Historical Associations. Somewhat obscure subject matter. Good Luck. I'll do some digging also when I can later.
Cheers!