Regimental Flags

[G Low]

I was looking at my ancestors regimental flag on display in the Kennesaw Mt. battle field Museum in Georgia.It has Cherokee Dragoons on it , The motto on top says "EITHER WITH IT OR UP ON IT". I've been reading about it, it goes way back to Spartan Soldiers saying that they will return with their shield or be carried dead back home upon it. This flag is two sided with the original Confederate flag on the other side. What other mottos were used on other regimental flags and were there many two sided flags.

 

[Flag Guy]

I always thought Pico Blvd. was named for once of the Pico brothers who were in charge of Mexican California. Out near Whittier there is gone their houses that's a park of some type. State Park probably. Pio and Andreas Pico.
Mostly what I think of with Pico Blvd. is "Pico and Sepulveda, Pico and Sepulveda...." from Dr. Dimento.

I had read that it was named for Andres Pico, a state senator, Mexican War veteran and the author of the Pico Act to separate southern California from northern.

 

[Flag Guy]

I had read that it was named for Andres Pico, a state senator, Mexican War veteran and the author of the Pico Act to separate southern California from northern.

The street name that cracked me up as well from when I lived in LA was La Brea. The La Brea Tar Pits actually translates to the "tar tar pits," as Brea is tar in Spanish. The "Pico and Sepulveda" song from Dr. Demento was a classic!

 

[Flag Guy]

A nice two-sider, 28th Alabama, it was captured at Orchard Knob. I cannot find an image of the saltire side.
Here is an interesting page with Federal and Confederate descriptions of this fight.

Here are images of both sides- the reverse side only a partial image from its drawer at ADAH.

 

[Flag Guy]

They hid their flags after this

That and the county sherriff orders for no flags of any kind to fly for 30 days. That can be found in both period Baltimore newspapers which I have in my files on Maryland flags.

 

[Flag Guy]

Curiously, this red star flag is the same as signal flags awarded for valor.

View attachment 526688
The usual square in the center of the signal flag was replaced by a red or white star.

Lone star flags in American history date back to the West Florida Republic in the early 1800s when American settlers revolted against Spanish rule. West Florida included modern southern Alabama, southern Mississippi and the part of Louisiana north of Lake Pontchartrain heading up to about where Natchez, MS is today. After that they come back into use in the Texas War of Independence where starting in 1836 the star became a central device for the Texas republic flag adopted in 1839 (and still used today), and then again in the 1860/1861 secession era mostly in those states that had a physical connection to West Florida but also in Georgia and South Carolina which didn't.

 

[G Low]

Yes this is before the Yazoo land scandal back when Georgia went all the way to the Mississippi .

 

[G Low]

The now retired curator of the Florida Museum of History told me years ago that he had never found a single instance of the adopted state flag ever being used. Nor have I in nearly 40 years of flag research. There was also a lone star flag hoisted in Pensacola and noted by a US Navy officer offshore in his report. It has mistakenly been called a Florida secession flag with the implication that this flew all over the state when the only documented place was Pensacola.

View attachment 526854

This flag is hanging in Beauvoir .

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

Three such flags still exist today for these exchanged units, all made in Mississippi.

Do you know where in Mississippi these flags were manufactured ?

Thanks.

 

[Flag Guy]

The Pensacola lone star flag I depicted? So far as I knew this never survived. Does Beauvoir have a replica?

 

[G Low]

The Pensacola lone star flag I depicted? So far as I knew this never survived. Does Beauvoir have a replica?

Poor photo but It's there. It was such a cool room I made a movie, this is a screenshot.

 

[Flag Guy]

Do you know where in Mississippi these flags were manufactured ?

Thanks.

I wish I did for certain. Jackson had a flag maker named CH Manship, who later became mayor during the war and whose house still stands today in Jackson. When I was there in August to do flag programs for the Mississippi Department of Archives and History museum I wanted to tour his house but it was closed for renovations. Manship, I think, made the August/September 1862 wool Van Dorn pattern flags and MIGHT have made these 15 star flags as well. The more ornate flags could have come from Mobile where several flag makers of note resided but not sure about that either. Manship could have made those too - Fowler Guards/42nd GA and the Tilghman HQ flag I posted. The sad thing about CS flags for the Vicksburg Campaign is that 80 some were captured when the city fell and none of them were sent to the US War Department. Instead, it seems like Grant's officers purloined most of them including Gen. Frank Blair - we know he did as he loaned two flags to the late 1863 Cincinnati Sanitary Fair for display taken at Vicksburg. Some flags got smuggled out by the Confederates - that of the 39th Georgia was only to be lost on Lookout Mountain taken from the regimental wagons that were still on the top when Hooker attacked. We have snapshots of these VB flags thanks only to those that survived and were never captured, those that survived that got smuggled out, those taken at Big Black River and Champion Hill plus at Jackson. But that is maybe 15 flags tops.

 

[Flag Guy]

Poor photo but It's there. It was such a cool room I made a movie, this is a screenshot.View attachment 526920

That is indeed a replica.

 

[G Low]

I was looking for this flag and read this:
Missouri's state law prohibits the state from selling or displaying the Confederate Battle Flag, except in educational or historical settings. Are they for real?
I wonder can you buy a confederate Missouri
Regiment Flag?

 

[Trooper "D"]

The street name that cracked me up as well from when I lived in LA was La Brea. The La Brea Tar Pits actually translates to the "tar tar pits," as Brea is tar in Spanish. The "Pico and Sepulveda" song from Dr. Demento was a classic!

You remember Dr. Dimento! That's great! HA.. "Fish heads, fish heads, rolley polley fish heads, eat them up yum". Here in AZ we have Picacho Peak State Park. Similar because Picacho means peak. So we have Peak Peak State Park. I think they are trying to start up the Picacho Pass reenactment again. Last March they had a timeline or just camps and demos or something. Used to be popular and within sight of the actual location of the mini battle.
I used to love going to the La Brea Tar Pits as a youngster. The mammoth statuary out in the front pits are very impressive.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

I wish I did for certain. Jackson had a flag maker named CH Manship, who later became mayor during the war and whose house still stands today in Jackson. When I was there in August to do flag programs for the Mississippi Department of Archives and History museum I wanted to tour his house but it was closed for renovations. Manship, I think, made the August/September 1862 wool Van Dorn pattern flags and MIGHT have made these 15 star flags as well. The more ornate flags could have come from Mobile where several flag makers of note resided but not sure about that either. Manship could have made those too - Fowler Guards/42nd GA and the Tilghman HQ flag I posted. The sad thing about CS flags for the Vicksburg Campaign is that 80 some were captured when the city fell and none of them were sent to the US War Department. Instead, it seems like Grant's officers purloined most of them including Gen. Frank Blair - we know he did as he loaned two flags to the late 1863 Cincinnati Sanitary Fair for display taken at Vicksburg. Some flags got smuggled out by the Confederates - that of the 39th Georgia was only to be lost on Lookout Mountain taken from the regimental wagons that were still on the top when Hooker attacked. We have snapshots of these VB flags thanks only to those that survived and were never captured, those that survived that got smuggled out, those taken at Big Black River and Champion Hill plus at Jackson. But that is maybe 15 flags tops.

Thanks!
That's what I was thinking.

As a native Jacksonian, I'm very familiar with Mayor Manship. But I didn't know he was also making flags.

It's also interesting to read the letters between him and General Sherman about giving basic food supplies to the Jackson civilians after the city was burned during the Vicksburg Campaign.

Here's a thread about Mississippi flags from earlier this year:

Flag Display at the Museum of Mississippi History | Contemporary Photos of Sites & Events

The Museum of Mississippi History has a great temporary exhibit on flags going on right now. The selection of Civil War flags is particularly good. Here are some photos I took in the exhibit a few days ago:

civilwartalk.com

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

You remember Dr. Dimento! That's great! HA.. "Fish heads, fish heads, rolley polley fish heads, eat them up yum".

I remember him !

Looked forward to his radio show every week.

 

[Flag Guy]

Thanks!
That's what I was thinking.

As a native Jacksonian, I'm very familiar with Mayor Manship. But I didn't know he was also making flags.

It's also interesting to read the letters between him and General Sherman about giving basic food supplies to the Jackson civilians after the city was burned during the Vicksburg Campaign.

Here's a thread about Mississippi flags from earlier this year:

Flag Display at the Museum of Mississippi History | Contemporary Photos of Sites & Events

The Museum of Mississippi History has a great temporary exhibit on flags going on right now. The selection of Civil War flags is particularly good. Here are some photos I took in the exhibit a few days ago:

civilwartalk.com

If you go to the MDAH Facebook page the videos of my programs are available for viewing there. I had a great time being there. Wonderful museum and a lot of flags on display.

 

[Trooper "D"]

Lone star flags in American history date back to the West Florida Republic in the early 1800s when American settlers revolted against Spanish rule. West Florida included modern southern Alabama, southern Mississippi and the part of Louisiana north of Lake Pontchartrain heading up to about where Natchez, MS is today. After that they come back into use in the Texas War of Independence where starting in 1836 the star became a central device for the Texas republic flag adopted in 1839 (and still used today), and then again in the 1860/1861 secession era mostly in those states that had a physical connection to West Florida but also in Georgia and South Carolina which didn't.

About that Texas Lone Star Flag, there was a red flag with two white stars before the Tejas revolution. One star for Tejas and one for Sonora or Chihuahua or one of those Mexican states. Tejas kept the red flag and white star design but with only one star. At Valverde and Glorietta and those New Mexico actions the Confederates carried that particular flag. How that became the new Texas flag I'm not sure. Both were used in 1862 in different theatres. I have no info on when the red lone star flag was retired. I wonder what Gen. Green flew when this troops went to Louisiana. Poor Ol' Tom lost his head at Jenkins Ferry I think. Cavalry against gunboats didn't work out so well for him.
Cheers!

 

[Flag Guy]

Manship had a flag painter working with him named Lee Mallary. His name is on the flag on the Duncan Riflemen, CO. A, 3rd Mississippi Battalion. I would think, but am not sure, that Manship turned over the flag business to someone when he became mayor. Jackson did have a QM depot and on an 1862 inventory there are seven flags listed as being in stock - these also fit the time frame of the second Van Dorn patterns.

 

[Trooper "D"]

I remember him !

Looked forward to his radio show every week.

Yes indeed. Good clean goofy fun.