Tell me more! Question about a old French sword

[Papabyrd]

I have a old French Sword from back in Napoleon's Time . My question is I have heard The south imported some of these during the Civil War.
Any truth to this ? I know one thing it has some more steel in the blade. If you tap the blade on something hard it will ring like a bell.

 

[Lanyard Puller]

I don't think any of these have been discovered so far with any Confederate markings, sales documents, blockade documents, or CS individuals marks or names.

 

[Papabyrd]

OK thank you very much

 

[R. Porter]

I think some French model 1831 cabbage chopper swords have been dug up here and there. If you consider that a number of military units in the south (and in the north too) were patterned after French Colonial military units, it would seem likely that some would be outfitted with infantry swords in an attempt to faithfully reproduce the appearance of French Zouaves. But maybe not, since a quick web search failed to produce any images of Zouaves outfitted this way. Surely there would be one regiment from Louisiana modeled after a French infantry unit outfitted with cabbage choppers. It seems that militia armories were cleaned out at the start of the war which would have thrown a number of older edged weapons into circulation, including Virginia manufactory sabers and Starr swords. Virginia is alleged to have had some French grenadier swords left in the warehouse from the Revolutionary War, and the War of 1812 at the start of the Civil War.

 

[James N.]

I have a old French Sword from back in Napoleon's Time . My question is I have heard The south imported some of these during the Civil War.
Any truth to this ? I know one thing it has some more steel in the blade. If you tap the blade on something hard it will ring like a bell.
View attachment 421995View attachment 421996

I can tell by looking that your sword isn't French but is rather one of the innumerable copies made by various countries following the Napoleonic Wars. Spain is the most likely source, but Prussia and probably other German states as well as Russia also copied them. The reason was that so many were lost or captured from the French in Spain, the Russian Campaign of 1812, and the last campaign in Germany culminating in the Battle of Leipzig in 1813 that the victors simply used them themselves and continued to do so even after the wars ended.

 

[bayonet]

Your not the only that has posted this type sword known as a Infantry 1816 Briquet and asked the same question. In fact around a month ago someone asked the same question. NO it is NOT a ACW weapon on either side. As James N. stated many European Countries used them and copied them. Some might of made it to South America or Mexico but not the US. Most likely a WW1 or WW2 vet bring back or they made there way here thru purchase or sales somehow. Sorry for the disappointment not a ACW weapon!

 

[FedericoFCavada]

The Mexican army did import and use the Napoleonic briquet d'infanterie.

The Prussian army continued--nominally at least--to issue "hangers" or infantry short swords long after bayonets had replaced them in most other armies. Small wonder they took so readily to the sword of the Napoleonic Grand Armee...

 

[Papabyrd]

Thank you for the info Bayonet

 

[cjwoliff]

Hard to tell from the pictures but the pommel cap looks dark.
If it is steel rather than brass, together with the 30 ribs of the grip
it could quite possibly be an Italian Carbinieri sword, 1920's thru WW2.
They often has C.A. or M.A. stamped on the ricasso to denote which armory manufactured it.
All were great short swords

 

[R. Porter]

Hard to tell from the pictures but the pommel cap looks dark.
If it is steel rather than brass, together with the 30 ribs of the grip
it could quite possibly be an Italian Carbinieri sword, 1920's thru WW2.
They often has C.A. or M.A. stamped on the ricasso to denote which armory manufactured it.
All were great short swords

I have seen a number of these swords offered on eBay as genuine relics of Napoleon's army. The C.A. or M.A. gives it away, but they do seem to have a high dome at the pommel that should start you looking for the C.A. or M.A.

 

[thomas aagaard]

I can tell by looking that your sword isn't French but is rather one of the innumerable copies made by various countries following the Napoleonic Wars. Spain is the most likely source, but Prussia and probably other German states as well as Russia also copied them. The reason was that so many were lost or captured from the French in Spain, the Russian Campaign of 1812, and the last campaign in Germany culminating in the Battle of Leipzig in 1813 that the victors simply used them themselves and continued to do so even after the wars ended.

Here in Denmark The guard company of the Royal lifeguard regiment carry this model of saber on duty.

The popular story is that the French used it, then lost a lot of them to the Prussians at Waterloo.
They then ended up in the hands of other German armies and a lot was given to support the rebels during the 1st sleswig war in 1848-50. And during that war Denmark captured them. And in 1854 it was then issued to the Guards.
(So the sabers are supposedly all French and was used during the Napoleonic wars)

But some years ago the Danish arms historical society was granted permission to take a look at every single saber.
I don't have access to the article about it, but the gist of it is similar to what James mention.
The actual sabers are from all over the place. Both in production location and year. Some are in fact original French infantry sabers produce early in the Napoleonic wars. So sabers that in theory could have made the trip to Moscow and in the end been lost at Waterloo. But most are not.
Some are prussian made sabers issued to Prussian infantry post 1808. And a lot are later "German" productions during the following decades.

 

[FedericoFCavada]

When I was a child with my parents briefly in Copenhagen, it was a miserable, cold and wet day and we saw one of those bearskin hat-wearing Lifeguards posted someplace as a sentry. He had snot running down is face and dripping off the end of his chin. Seemed entirely miserable... I wondered aloud that if he wasn't allowed to move or wipe off his face, and blow his nose, perhaps some bystander might be allowed to do so? Crazy things we remember we saw as kids... I did think the bearskin hat was interesting, and also that it must be warm at least...

 

[bayonet]

Here in Denmark The guard company of the Royal lifeguard regiment carry this model of saber on duty.
View attachment 426028
The popular story is that the French used it, then lost a lot of them to the Prussians at Waterloo.
They then ended up in the hands of other German armies and a lot was given to support the rebels during the 1st sleswig war in 1848-50. And during that war Denmark captured them. And in 1854 it was then issued to the Guards.
(So the sabers are supposedly all French and was used during the Napoleonic wars)

But some years ago the Danish arms historical society was granted permission to take a look at every single saber.
I don't have access to the article about it, but the gist of it is similar to what James mention.
The actual sabers are from all over the place. Both in production location and year. Some are in fact original French infantry sabers produce early in the Napoleonic wars. So sabers that in theory could have made the trip to Moscow and in the end been lost at Waterloo. But most are not.
Some are prussian made sabers issued to Prussian infantry post 1808. And a lot are later "German" productions during the following decades.

Those swords appear to be Model 1767 (as best I can tell) with the handle/grip going thru some changes during that time frame and after. If the Infantry 1816 Briquet was truly adopted in 1816 then they were not around during Waterloo or Napoleon 1 time

 

[James N.]

Those swords appear to be Model 1767 (as best I can tell) with the handle/grip going thru some changes during that time frame and after. If the Infantry 1816 Briquet was truly adopted in 1816 then they were not around during Waterloo or Napoleon 1 time

In between those two you mentioned are the Mlle. an IX and an XI which are virtually identical, save the odd pyramidal quillon on the former; other than the number of rings on the grip the latter is identical to the 1816.

 

[thomas aagaard]

From https://collections.royalarmouries....o/arms-and-armour/type/rac-narrative-589.html
"Until 1767 all French infantry carried some kind of sword as a sidearm. In the case of the fusiliers, who made up the bulk of regiments, this was an épée sword, whereas grenadiers carried sabres. Both these swords were of rather complicated construction, and rather long as sidearms when the main weapon was very much the musket and bayonet.

In 1767 the fusilier's épée was abolished, and the infantry sidearm was standardised as a short, flat-bladed and slightly curved sabre-briquet (meaning 'lighter sabre') with a simple and straight stirrup hilt. This sabre-briquet was not a completely new sword, as it had previously been in use with foreign troops in French service, but was now more widely issued.

This 1767 sabre-briquet stayed in service until 1800, when a widespread reorganisation of French military arms was undertaken. The new sabre-briquet - the Year XI - had a hilt cast in one piece, with a ribbed grip and slightly longer blade. The Year IX followed in 1802, which had a shortened blade from 59 cm to 54 cm, but was otherwise the same. The final version of this sword to be produced during the First Empire was the Year XIII, which returned to a 59 cm blade but reduced the number of ribs on the grip and simplified the quillon for ease of production. All three versions, IX/XI/XIII were in service simultaneously during the Napoleonic period."

And then as mentioned a number of other states and private arms manufactures made direct copies or their own versions of it over the following decades.

 

[R. Porter]

I think you mean that the new sabre-briquet was the year IX (year 9) and the year XI (year 11) followed in 1802. However, Wikipedia indicates that An XI was in 1803.

 

[James N.]

... This 1767 sabre-briquet stayed in service until 1800, when a widespread reorganisation of French military arms was undertaken. The new sabre-briquet - the Year XI - had a hilt cast in one piece, with a ribbed grip and slightly longer blade. The Year IX followed in 1802, which had a shortened blade from 59 cm to 54 cm, but was otherwise the same. The final version of this sword to be produced during the First Empire was the Year XIII, which returned to a 59 cm blade but reduced the number of ribs on the grip and simplified the quillon for ease of production. All three versions, IX/XI/XIII were in service simultaneously during the Napoleonic period."

I think you mean that the new sabre-briquet was the year IX (year 9) and the year XI (year 11) followed in 1802. However, Wikipedia indicates that An XI was in 1803.

I somewhat recently rekindled my interest in all things French Napoleonic and tend to be rusty about all those various model/year designations for pistols, muskets, musketoons, swords, and sabers. I own three of the Revolutionary/Imperial briquet-type infantry swords, two Revolutionary and one Imperial. One of the first type is totally unmarked and has a longer blade with a groove that isn't really a fuller running almost the length of the blade; according to Aries' Armes Blanches... it's probably of Solingen manufacture. The next is more conventional, stamped COLEAUX on the knucklebow and having a tiny fasces inspector's mark stamped on the otherwise plain blade. The Imperial example is very worn but has Mfture Imple Coleaux Feres engraved on the spine of the almost identical blade; according to Aries, the lack of a date indicates manufacture before 1810, after which it should be engraved something like Mfture Imple - Janvier, 1811.

A problem with the idiotic and fortunately relatively short-lived Revolutionary Calendar is that a single year actually spans two of ours: Since the year dated from the abolition of the monarchy and nothing solar, The Year I began in September! Therefore, it went from September to the next September - now renamed for seasonal effects rather than traditionally - 1792/3. By that means of reckoning, an XI covered part of both 1803 AND 1804! (1792 + 11 = 1803.) Confused enough now?

Yet another problem for collectors of militaria or firearms from all nationalities is that model numbers can easily predate actual years of manufacture. Prototypes may be dated prior to official adoption, as in our so-called M.1860 cavalry sabers that may easily have dates of 1858 or 1859. Other models may be adopted in advance of their actual production, as in the case of an early U.S. martial pistol I was reading about recently - I think it was denominated the M.1805 but not actually produced until either 1806 or 1807.

 

[FedericoFCavada]

I'm rather fond of the French Revolutionary calendar...

 

[FedericoFCavada]

 

[FedericoFCavada]

And from the Wiki entry, noting the British reaction:

In Britain, a contemporary wit mocked the Republican Calendar by calling the months: Wheezy, Sneezy and Freezy; Slippy, Drippy and Nippy; Showery, Flowery and Bowery; Hoppy, Croppy and Poppy.[11]​ The historian Thomas Carlyle suggested somewhat more serious English names in his 1837 work The French Revolution: A History,[10]​ namely Vintagearious, Fogarious, Frostarious, Snowous, Rainous, Windous, Buddal, Floweral, Meadowal, Reapidor, Heatidor, and Fruitidor. Like the French originals, they are neologisms suggesting a meaning related to the season.

Put the house of Winsor, aka ex-house of Saxe-Coburg und Gotha, in the tumbrils says I!