Pickett's Charge Objective

[wescul]

General Lee wanted to break the Union Line in the center... If Pickett's Charge had succeded and the Union Line was split in two what happens next? Does the Union/Meade "give" up? Does the Union/Meade retreat further back like they did on Day 1 taking a defensive position along Pipe Creek etc? I've read that Jeb Staurt was suppose to swing wide around the north end of Gettysburg and "meet" Pickett's Division behind Cem. Ridge. once they had broken through. Again, what exactly is the objective of breaking the Union Line into two?

 

[cash]

There's no evidence that Stuart was to do that. His actions make no sense if that was his objective. The best explanation that fits with his actions is that he was guarding the left flank of the confederate army and in position to take advantage of anything that would happen.

The objective was to take Cemetery Hill. That's the key position for the entire battlefield. Once the confederates held Cemetery Hill the Federals would have to retreat.

 

[wescul]

Cash thanks for your reply. Stuart's actions that I'm referring to are the East Calvary Field Battle.. It is well documented that he fought the up and coming George Custer there and the History Channel has done a few series on the fight that says he was to charge from the rear of the Union Line linking up with Pickett after he split the line in two.
Thanks for clearing up the understanding of Cemetery Hill. The number usually given is 15,000 men for Pickett's Charge thus making me wonder if they had succeeded what was next as 15,000 could not hold off the vast majority of the Union Line. Lee's reinforcements would have to cover the same ground to add/aid Pickett's Charge. In addition, the Union had several regiments/divisions in reserve behind Cemetery Ridge that I'm sure Meade would have called up. Again, thanks for your input on what has always been a great What If To Me.

 

[rpkennedy]

Cash thanks for your reply. Stuart's actions that I'm referring to are the East Calvary Field Battle.. It is well documented that he fought the up and coming George Custer there and the History Channel has done a few series on the fight that says he was to charge from the rear of the Union Line linking up with Pickett after he split the line in two.
Thanks for clearing up the understanding of Cemetery Hill. The number usually given is 15,000 men for Pickett's Charge thus making me wonder if they had succeeded what was next as 15,000 could not hold off the vast majority of the Union Line. Lee's reinforcements would have to cover the same ground to add/aid Pickett's Charge. In addition, the Union had several regiments/divisions in reserve behind Cemetery Ridge that I'm sure Meade would have called up. Again, thanks for your input on what has always been a great What If To Me.

Lee wrote in his report that Stuart was sent to the left to protect that flank. It seems reasonable that if there was a breakthrough, he could've provided support and sow confusion but that wasn't the primary purpose behind placing him there.

R

 

[wescul]

rpkennedy, thanks for your reply!

 

[Billy Yank]

If I remember correctly, Gen. Lee was hoping 2 brigades would make it to the objective and hold for reinforcing elements to support them. In this scenario, I see them caught in a pincer envelopment from overwhelming Federal reinforcements counterattacking from the North and the South...an even greater bloodbath than what history provided.

 

[ole]

One might also wonder what the two halves of Meade's army would do to Pickett's remaining forces between them.

 

[rpkennedy]

rpkennedy, thanks for your reply!

You are welcome.

R

 

[rpkennedy]

One might also wonder what the two halves of Meade's army would do to Pickett's remaining forces between them.

I think the assumption was that the army would break rather than counterattack. A very optimistic view, IMO.

R

 

[brass napoleon]

I think the assumption was that the army would break rather than counterattack. A very optimistic view, IMO.

R

Well, optimistic given what we know about that army now. But given its performance prior to July, 1863, it wasn't all that unreasonable a presumption.

 

[shoney]

I have always said that Pickett's charge was Lee's "Hail Mary". I think the idea of withdrawing from that battlefield and having to fight a whole new battle somewhere else was just too much to bear at the time. He probably thought my army is here and their army is here, so this finish this right now. His goal was to breakthrough and force the Union army to withdraw, which would mean a Confederate victory. I really don't think he thought that he could destroy the Union army at that point in the battle. I think he was desperate for a victory any way he could get it. Like I said he threw a "Hail Mary".

 

[wescul]

Billy Yank and Ole, You guys hit the nail on the head as to my original post. Even if Lee split the line.....what next? The Union Army/Meade simply packs up and leaves, or destroy the two halves of the ANV. I am of the opinion like Billy Yank that the reinforcements would have made it an even bigger blood bath than what has been recorded in history.

 

[cash]

Cash thanks for your reply. Stuart's actions that I'm referring to are the East Calvary Field Battle.

I know.

. It is well documented that he fought the up and coming George Custer there and the History Channel has done a few series on the fight that says he was to charge from the rear of the Union Line linking up with Pickett after he split the line in two.

Anyone who looks deeply into this will tell you that Stuart's actions don't align with that hypothesis. He retreated after only a limited action. If he was going to charge the rear of the Union line he would have fought a lot harder.

When he was moving toward his position he fired a cannon in all four directions. That makes no sense if he wanted to strike the rear of the Union line, as it gives away his presence and thus any hope of surprise. What makes sense is he wanted to see if any Union forces were in the area to react to those cannon shots. He was guarding the flank.

Don't rely on the History Channel for accurate information.

Thanks for clearing up the understanding of Cemetery Hill. The number usually given is 15,000 men for Pickett's Charge thus making me wonder if they had succeeded what was next as 15,000 could not hold off the vast majority of the Union Line. Lee's reinforcements would have to cover the same ground to add/aid Pickett's Charge.

Ewell's men in the town would be able to come up on Cemetery Hill a lot faster once it fell.

In addition, the Union had several regiments/divisions in reserve behind Cemetery Ridge that I'm sure Meade would have called up.

Lee didn't know where the reserves were. He thought they were behind the left flank of the Union army.

 

[cash]

One might also wonder what the two halves of Meade's army would do to Pickett's remaining forces between them.

There wouldn't be two halves with Pickett in between them. There would be confederates on Cemetery Hill turning the Union guns to fire down Cemetery Ridge.

 

[cash]

Well, optimistic given what we know about that army now. But given its performance prior to July, 1863, it wasn't all that unreasonable a presumption.

Indeed. They broke on July 1, after all, and they almost broke on July 2.

 

[cash]

Billy Yank and Ole, You guys hit the nail on the head as to my original post. Even if Lee split the line.....what next? The Union Army/Meade simply packs up and leaves, or destroy the two halves of the ANV. I am of the opinion like Billy Yank that the reinforcements would have made it an even bigger blood bath than what has been recorded in history.

He wasn't splitting the line. That's the influence of Michael Shaara's novel, The Killer Angels and the movie "Gettysburg" based on that novel. To split the line he would have to focus the assault somewhere around where the Pennsylvania Memorial is today. He was heading toward Cemetery Hill. With confederates occupying and holding Cemetery Hill, Meade is forced to retreat to the Pipe Creek Line and Lee has a victory in Pennsylvania.

 

[rpkennedy]

Well, optimistic given what we know about that army now. But given its performance prior to July, 1863, it wasn't all that unreasonable a presumption.

They had generally fought well but had been let down by their commanders. Post-Chancellorsville, the AotP had probably its best crop of officers of the war in command positions at all levels.

Even with what Lee knew, what could realistically be accomplished by 15,000 men in that particular attack? There was no real plan to follow up any breaches (with the exception of Wilcox and Lang's Brigades) and so everything depended on the initial attack force to not only take the position but also exploit it. That's an awfully tall order unless one believes that the breach itself would cause the AotP to fall apart which is, as I said, a very optimistic appraisal of the situation.

R

 

[wescul]

Very good spirited debate!! Still a lot of what if's with all of the proposed above actions. Guess this one will go down in history to be debated! Thanks for the replies guys.

 

[W. Richardson]

Lee wrote in his report that Stuart was sent to the left to protect that flank. It seems reasonable that if there was a breakthrough, he could've provided support and sow confusion but that wasn't the primary purpose behind placing him there.

R

I agree with your post on this.......However had Stuart pushed Gregg from the field...........What would Stuart then do ? Halt and wait ? or drive toward the rear of Cemetery Hill ?

Respectfully,

William

 

[wescul]

or drive toward the rear of Cemetery Hill

Again, that was always my interpretation of Stuart's actions for the 3rd Day. Again, I have no problem standing wrong or being corrected. Likewise I think it's safe to say that non of Lee's plans went the way he intended or wanted them to go preceding and during the battle itself! (-: