Pickett's Charge Objective

[W. Richardson]

Again, that was always my interpretation of Stuart's actions for the 3rd Day. Again, I have no problem standing wrong or being corrected. Likewise I think it's safe to say that non of Lee's plans went the way he intended or wanted them to go preceding and during the battle itself! (-:

By halting and waiting after pushing Gregg from the field he would be in compliance of Lee's instructions to protect the left flank. However to push on to the rear of Cemetery Hill would throw a great force in the Union's rear and be a very demoralizing event with Pickett's charge in the front.

Respectfully,

William

 

[wescul]

Thanks W. Richardson!

 

[E_just_E]

re: Stuart. Here is a larger (than usual and with the roads indicated) map of Day 3. As you can tell, he was elsewhere occupied. Also, to get from where he was to Cemetery Ridge area, he'd have to either go the long way: south and then NW through the Baltimore Pike, or through town via York Pike or Hanover Rd.

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[W. Richardson]

re: Stuart. Here is a larger (than usual and with the roads indicated) map of Day 3. As you can tell, he was elsewhere occupied. Also, to get from where he was to Cemetery Ridge area, he'd have to either go the long way: south and then NW through the Baltimore Pike, or through town via York Pike or Hanover Rd.

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Interesting, but why would Stuart have to go through town ? Why not across country ? After all it is cavalry. Now to go the long way around as you stated, could that not be why Stuart started IIRC up to 2 hours before the cannonade ?
IIRC Stuart started out around 10 am or earlier but I maybe mistaken about the time.


Respectfully,

William

 

[E_just_E]

Here is a pretty detailed map of the Pickett/Pettigrew charge:

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Look at the arrows. The battle lines were pretty much North to South. A full charge ahead to break the army in half would had been the shortest and fastest possible way: West to East. That was not the cage. Pettigrew's and Pickett's troops went SSE and NNE respectively, to converge to what is now called the 'high water mark', which was the easiest way, terrain-wise, to get to the high ground, and right by Mead's headquarters. If the charge was any closer, for sure Mead would had retreated. That's what I think was the objective.

 

[E_just_E]

Interesting, but why would Stuart have to go through town ? Why not across country ? After all it is cavalry. Now to go the long way around as you stated, could that not be why Stuart started IIRC up to 2 hours before the cannonade ?
IIRC Stuart started out around 10 am or earlier but I maybe mistaken about the time.


Respectfully,

William

Do you see those green things in the map? Hills with really heavy woods. Makes cavarly a slow infantry. Meade's positioning of the army was based on the topography.

 

[W. Richardson]

Do you see those green things in the map? Hills with really heavy woods. Makes cavarly a slow infantry. Meade's positioning of the army was based on the topography.

Do you see those GREEN things on the map ? There called fields..........you know fields farmers use for crops. Those fields didn't stop infantry did they ? And again cavalry as slow infantry could that not be the reason that Stuart left out early ?

Respectfully,

William

 

[W. Richardson]

EE,

I am not arguing that Stuart was acting in codnation with Pickett's Charge, or that he could simply waltz up behind the AoTP, I am merely pointing out the possibilities..........As I stated earlier.......

If Stuart had cleared Gregg from the field..............What was his next objective........

By halting and waiting after pushing Gregg from the field he would be in compliance of Lee's instructions to protect the left flank. However to push on to the rear of Cemetery Hill would throw a great force in the Union's rear and be a very demoralizing event with Pickett's charge in the front.

Respectfully,

William

 

[cash]

re: Stuart. Here is a larger (than usual and with the roads indicated) map of Day 3. As you can tell, he was elsewhere occupied. Also, to get from where he was to Cemetery Ridge area, he'd have to either go the long way: south and then NW through the Baltimore Pike, or through town via York Pike or Hanover Rd.

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Yes. Hanover Road was there, but that takes him into town and complicates things for him. It's very smart to use a topographical map that shows the terrain, because it shows clearly why Stuart couldn't just ride into the rear of Meade's position.

 

[E_just_E]

EE,

I am not arguing that Stuart was acting in codnation with Pickett's Charge, or that he could simply waltz up behind the AoTP, I am merely pointing out the possibilities..........As I stated earlier.......

If Stuart had cleared Gregg from the field..............What was his next objective........

By halting and waiting after pushing Gregg from the field he would be in compliance of Lee's instructions to protect the left flank. However to push on to the rear of Cemetery Hill would throw a great force in the Union's rear and be a very demoralizing event with Pickett's charge in the front.

Respectfully,

William

Not sure what his next objective would had been. All I know is that he could have not gone over Culp's Hill (and other, bigger actually, wooded hills) to converge on cemetery ridge with the rest of the forces. They'd have to walk the horses up and down Culp's Hill ...

 

[AUG]

Do you see those GREEN things on the map ? There called fields..........you know fields farmers use for crops. Those fields didn't stop infantry did they ? And again cavalry as slow infantry could that not be the reason that Stuart left out early ?

Respectfully,

William

Actually the green spots on the map do represent wooded terrain. If you understand the battlefield you will realize that the the green spots are located where there was wooded terrain, such as Culps Hill, Seminary Ridge, Little and Big Round Top, Rose Woods, etc. It's the same on the detailed map of Pickett's Charge as well.

General Lee wanted to break the Union Line in the center... If Pickett's Charge had succeded and the Union Line was split in two what happens next? Does the Union/Meade "give" up? Does the Union/Meade retreat further back like they did on Day 1 taking a defensive position along Pipe Creek etc? I've read that Jeb Staurt was suppose to swing wide around the north end of Gettysburg and "meet" Pickett's Division behind Cem. Ridge. once they had broken through. Again, what exactly is the objective of breaking the Union Line into two?

It wouldn't have succeeded. Only up to about 300 men made it to the angle on Cemetery Ridge. 12,500 men took part in the attack and over 6,500 became casualties. A large number of men ran the other way, possibly after they had reached the Emmitsburg Road. Even in the case that a much larger number of men made it past the angle and onto Cemetery Ridge, then how will they exploit the breakthrough? How will they hold off Federal reinforcements? All 12,500 won't make it to Cemetery Ridge unless there was no one there to defend it.

 

[W. Richardson]

Not sure what his next objective would had been. All I know is that he could have not gone over Culp's Hill (and other, bigger actually, wooded hills) to converge on cemetery ridge with the rest of the forces. They'd have to walk the horses up and down Culp's Hill ...

You need to look at the maps again. There is a good deal of maneuverable land that Stuart could have used to get behind the AoTP. I will grant you it would not have been easy and it would have been time consuming. However if he drove Gregg from the field he would have either halted and waited or moved on toward the rear of the AoTP. As stated earlier any large group of infantry or cavalry in the rear of an army creates a demoralizing effect, perhaps that is all Lee wanted. I do not know. Pickett's Charge was a desperate act and one that many question Lee about, unless he was counting on Stuart's cavalry to have a demoralizing effect on the AotP. Stuart IMHO was doing more than what was needed to protect the flank. To protect the flank all he had to do was be there, he didn't have to attack unless he was headed to some objective and Gregg was in his way.

Respectfully,

William

 

[E_just_E]

(This is for entertainment purposes only)
There is a lot of what-iffing going on about Gettysburg. One of my favorites is what if Stonewall Jackson was still alive and what if JEB Stuart had a mission to get just around the fish-hook and he were successful?

That alternative history scenario, usually results in a destruction of the majority of the Army of the Potomac and the retreat of the rest. Here is that map:

Pretty sure that there is someone programming video games with stuff like that these days...

But it is entertainment. Not history. As far as I am concerned, the most interesting Alternative Reality question about this battle is: "What if John Reynolds accepted the command of the Army of the Potomac?"

 

[Drew]

Here is a pretty detailed map of the Pickett/Pettigrew charge:

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Look at the arrows. The battle lines were pretty much North to South. A full charge ahead to break the army in half would had been the shortest and fastest possible way: West to East. That was not the cage. Pettigrew's and Pickett's troops went SSE and NNE respectively, to converge to what is now called the 'high water mark', which was the easiest way, terrain-wise, to get to the high ground, and right by Mead's headquarters. If the charge was any closer, for sure Mead would had retreated. That's what I think was the objective.

Some of us were there yesterday, looking at the terrain. The trees on the ridge were what they could see through the smoke and they went for that point. I'm no "student" of Pickett's charge, but it looks to me like the plan was to break the Union line and roll it in both directions. Make them run, as they had before. To get Cemetery Hill, you want Union forces between you and the artillery there.

The Union flanks had held on Day 2 and so Lee thought the weakness would be in the center of the Union line. He was wrong, but stupid is hindsight. Maybe we need another thread, "What would you do on July 3rd?"

 

[ole]

Super maps, EE. Defines Day 3 most excellently. Even the "dream on" one.

 

[E_just_E]

Some of us were there yesterday, looking at the terrain. The trees on the ridge were what they could see through the smoke and they went for that point. I'm no "student" of Pickett's charge, but it looks to me like the plan was to break the Union line and roll it in both directions. Make them run, as they had before. To get Cemetery Hill, you want Union forces between you and the artillery there.

The Union flanks had held on Day 2 and so Lee thought the weakness would be in the center of the Union line. He was wrong, but stupid is hindsight. Maybe we need another thread, "What would you do on July 3rd?"

Interesting thing: There is a whole hypothesis of the charge called "the little clump of trees" hypothesis. This is the map they use to support it:

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and we know it's not close to reality...

 

[Drew]

Interesting thing: There is a whole hypothesis of the charge called "the little clump of trees" hypothesis. This is the map they use to support it:

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and we know it's not close to reality...

I'm not sure that we know this. In fact, the more I learn (and I'm still learning) the more I think we don't know what we think we know. All of the arguing in this Forum is indicative of that. Everyone's got an opinion, but no one really knows. I don't mean just Gettysburg, but the whole dang thing.

The ANV went forward on July 3, 1863, broke the Union line at Cemetery Ridge but failed to take it. This, we know. They were repulsed.

Exactly who was thinking what (while running through or delivering opposing fire) will probably never be known.

 

[E_just_E]

I'm not sure that we know this. In fact, the more I learn (and I'm still learning) the more I think we don't know what we think we know. All of the arguing in this Forum is indicative of that. Everyone's got an opinion, but no one really knows. I don't mean just Gettysburg, but the whole dang thing.

The ANV went forward on July 3, 1863, broke the Union line at Cemetery Ridge but failed to take it. This, we know. They were repulsed.

Exactly who was thinking what (while running through or delivering opposing fire) will probably never be known.

Agreed. And the 'mystery' here is because we do not have the orders of that battle. And that is because a particular individual felt that it was below him to talk about what he was thinking during the war and why he did what he did and maybe write something about it...

 

[Drew]

Agreed. And the 'mystery' here is because we do not have the orders of that battle. And that is because a particular individual felt that it was below him to talk about what he was thinking during the war and why he did what he did and maybe write something about it...

A particular individual attempted and failed to gather the records necessary to write his version of events, before he died, well before most of the rest.

 

[godofredus]

Sometime ago I read (or saw) an article on why Pickett's charge failed. It was because Lee couldn't see the terrain.
He saw "the little clump of trees" but didn't see the fences on the Emmetsburg road, and the dips in the ground, that terribly slowed the advancing troops and made them targets of artillery. Some hypothesis is that Lee was used to plantation ground, uninterrupted terrain, unlike Pennsylvania farms, replete with fences.