Recent Find P53 lock marking

[Conquerordie]

I recently came into a P53 with a Tower 1862 lock. The stock is broken clear through at the wrist, and I will repair. While taking it apart, looking for marks on the wood and parts I found a few. There is a R&L on the lock, under the trigger guard, and the bottom of the barrel. Would these denote all the parts were produced by one producer? Here are some pics:

Plus one Roses

The stock is broken and very dirty, so more markings might show up as the project goes on. Appreciate any help,

Greg

 

[Old Soldier]

R&L = Robbins & Lawrence in Windsor, VT. These were an early - and quite rare - version of the Pattern 1853 Type 2 (springs for bands) made in the USA. If they are British issue, they shoud have acceptence marks (military) or proof marks (civilain). If they are British issue, the may well have ben signed off (opposing arrows -X- on barrel and butt) and given civilian proofs on the barrel.

 

[Conquerordie]

This one is definitely a Type 3, no springs for the bands.

 

[Old Soldier]

The barrel - The Rose Brothers (Hales-Owen Mills & Forge) were barrel makers located in Halesowen, Worcestershire, operating between 1860 and 1892 so the barrel is likely one of their's. Given the dates, it is unlikely to be a Windsor rifle (went bust in 1858), but I cannot find a R&L in the available online records for Birmingham. A source MAY be The Gun Makers of Birmingham, 1660–1960 Joseph McKenna 978-1-4766-8378-2 978-1-4766-4146-1.

 

[Old Soldier]

Note: R&L will be the assembler. They may have made some of the parts but almost certainly, not all.

 

[Conquerordie]

I was cleaning the wood today with distilled water and a couple drops of dish soap to get some of the grunge off. Small amounts of mineral spirits cause the stock had three different colors of paint splatters on it. Found the remains of a BSAT stamp behind the trigger guard, and a VIII in the ramrod channel. That's all I can find on the wood. Neat little note, I found tiny VIII stamped on the barrel bands. So they are original to the gun. I don't know if I'll ever know what the R&L stands for. Just odd to see it on all the major parts of the gun. The buttplate screws are original and the top tang screw does not want to come off. So I'm just going to leave it in place as I fix the stock.

 

[Old Soldier]

The VIII are the assembler's mark - the guy, not the firm, who put it together. They may well be on all parts. They often appear on the EDGE of the lockplate!

BTW - The buttplate screws - I have found that these are extremely temperamental. If they are hard/impossible to remove, it usually means they are original and the wood (and rust?) has expanded and bound them. The thread is not as sharp as a modern wood screw and often as tight as a metal screw thread on these older guns and this almost ensures they will not move easily. This is a smaller wood screw off a pistol grip buttplate, just to show:

 

[Conquerordie]

Yeah the buttplate screws won't move, and I'm not gonna force them, so it will have to remain on the stock as I fix and restore. Shouldn't be a problem. I believe all the parts on this musket are original. They all have the same patina and pitting that match. That's important to me.

 

[Conquerordie]

While cleaning I found the VIII on the edge of the lockplate and the rear sight. Don't see it on the barrel anywhere, but if the rear sight has it, then I'm convinced the barrel is original too. Uncovered a few more letters and numbers stamped around the breech at the bottom of the barrel as well. It's like a treasure hunt! I'm addicted.

 

[Old Soldier]

If the assembler's mark is on the barrel it will be at the breech end, underneath. Just a thought. Your barrel is proof-marked underneath, which is very unusual, as I mentioned earlier. if you cannot find the mark, it may be that this barrel is a replacement which is not unusual.

 

[Conquerordie]

Sorry if my posts are confusing. It's proofed in the normal location (pic included). The extra letters and numbers are shown below. I still haven't found the assemblers mark on the bottom of the barrel. I did find the mark on both lock screws.I'm sure these are just inspection marks that Ill never know the meaning.

 

[Old Soldier]

The proof is a Birmingham proof and the two '25's tell you it was made and finished as a 25-bore (.577") barrel. (Some were supplied in .58 (standard US round) so it will have a 25 (first proof before finishing) and a 24 (.58"). The conversion was done by reboring the barrel which was an easy way of using British-made barrels and blank barrels for the Union forces. The one to watch out for is '14.4' which means it is a Belgian barrel (.557" = 14.4mm).

Those stamps are company inspection stamps which are very hard to research.

 

[Conquerordie]

Old Soldier, just want to say thanks for answering my questions and giving me things to look for. I appreciate the help. Found the assemblers mark on all the parts, did some dry fitting of the parts before I epoxy them. Missing some wood, so I'll have to tackle that after the wrist is stabilized. I'll open a different thread when it's done. I guess this is my first foray into Civil War restoration and preservation. Feels good to take on a project like this.

 

[Old Soldier]

Great, isn't it? I re-started after I retired. I've bought in some real good items - and some real bananas. You learn as you go! My current run started with an old bolt-action Chilean Mannlicher M1886 (obsolete calibre in the the UK so not deactivated). Talk about rust and rot!! I am now into British percussion revolvers. not the good, clean expensive ones ($3,000) - the ones that are a bit rough (<$1000). I have had to make new springs and parts for them since they are not available for sale. Great fun - once you have found the materials and equipment and developed the skills you never knew you had. Thanks to those who have been following this exchange of information too!

For those who are not aware - anything that shoots using cartridge or gunpowder requires a Firearm Certificate in the UK. We are only allowed 'obsolete cartridge' firearms (no commercial ammo available) which use mainly older black powder cartridges and antique 'muzzle-loaders' which are not intended to be fired. If I want to use my 1858 Tranter on the range, I would need a Firearms Certificate and all that requires (costs a fortune!). That is why we sometimes sound a little naive when it comes to guns.