North Carolina

[atlantis]

Good point. Thanks for bringing this up. I've been scratching my head over this thread for a while now. The OP said:

>>NC in April of 65 did not have to be the end of the line for the CSA. Johnston surrender was an unforced blunder. The lose of Va. while a serious blow freed up the confederacy to create a realistic center of gravity an a strategy to defend it.
April 65 there were around 105-115, 000 CS troops still in the field.<<

But the thread title, "North Carolina" was what got my attention in the first place, since I have a particular interest in the war here in NC. I guess you could argue whether the 115k figure is accurate, and how available those forces really were. And rather than a "blunder," Johnston's surrender seems calculated to me; he was ready to call it quits. That said, is the OP suggesting that North Carolina could have become "a realistic center of gravity ... to defend" the Confederacy? How would that have worked?

Roy B.

 

[atlantis]

Good point. Thanks for bringing this up. I've been scratching my head over this thread for a while now. The OP said:

>>NC in April of 65 did not have to be the end of the line for the CSA. Johnston surrender was an unforced blunder. The lose of Va. while a serious blow freed up the confederacy to create a realistic center of gravity an a strategy to defend it.
April 65 there were around 105-115, 000 CS troops still in the field.<<

But the thread title, "North Carolina" was what got my attention in the first place, since I have a particular interest in the war here in NC. I guess you could argue whether the 115k figure is accurate, and how available those forces really were. And rather than a "blunder," Johnston's surrender seems calculated to me; he was ready to call it quits. That said, is the OP suggesting that North Carolina could have become "a realistic center of gravity ... to defend" the Confederacy? How would that have worked?

Roy B.

Why not Davis was in NC. Raleigh could have hosted a gov't. Well built field works would have rendered assault a high casualty affair and I wonder how much more sacrifice the northern home front and for that matter the army was willing to make. Johnston was ready to call it quits does not make him right.

 

[A. Roy]

Why not Davis was in NC. Raleigh could have hosted a gov't. Well built field works would have rendered assault a high casualty affair and I wonder how much more sacrifice the northern home front and for that matter the army was willing to make. Johnston was ready to call it quits does not make him right.

Yes, that's the interesting question for me right now: How would it have worked?

Raleigh was already fortified, with 18 batteries connected by a 4-5-mile circle of entrenchments. By 1865, Johnston's army would have been capable of strengthening those quickly. Would that have been enough? In the short run, he would have had to hold off Sherman's 90,000 with only 20,000.

Given that Lee had already surrendered, I guess Grant would have been along soon as well. You're saying there were 105-115k soldiers elsewhere. What would have been the logistics to get them to NC, and the resources to keep them supplied?

It all seems like a longshot to me, but it's an intriguing what-if.

Roy B.

 

[leftyhunter]

Why not Davis was in NC. Raleigh could have hosted a gov't. Well built field works would have rendered assault a high casualty affair and I wonder how much more sacrifice the northern home front and for that matter the army was willing to make. Johnston was ready to call it quits does not make him right.

How does Raleigh feed itself with 20k more men to feed? What is the point of fighting that late in the war? The Confedracy has no ports other then in Texas but there are already Union troops in Texas with more to come. How do besieged troops in Raleigh care for their families? By April 1865 the issue of slavery has already been decided.
Leftyhunter

 

[damYankee]

You should keep in mind that the KKk was the only defence against the Union League type black militias led by their carpetbagger and scalawag rulers.

Give me a break, the KKK lynched unarmed citizens, they were cowards, bullies and murderers.

 

[CSA Today]

Give me a break, the KKK lynched unarmed citizens, they were cowards, bullies and murderers.

Give me a break, only two of the former Confederate states had black majorities, has it ever occurred to you that the majority white population in the other nine would have voted carpetbaggers and scalawags out of office if it was them, not the blacks who were oppressed?

 

[damYankee]

Give me a break, only two of the former Confederate states had black majorities, has it ever occurred to you that the majority white population in the other nine would have voted carpetbaggers and scalawags out of office if it was them, not the blacks who were oppressed?

I forgot, whites bad been enslaved by the blacks for 250 years before the civil war. Thanks for the history lesson.

 

[CSA Today]

I forgot, whites bad been enslaved by the blacks for 250 years before the civil war. Thanks for the history lesson.

Another history lesson, the blacks didn't help themselves with their black militias during Reconstruction. The poor souls likely thought their Republican Party white handlers would be there forever. They learned the hard way that the Republicans had more important priorities than them following the presidential election of 1876. For many white Southerners, Reconstruction left more bitter memories than the war itself.

 

[CSA Today]

Deleted

Anytime.

"While I could never with safety repose confidence in a Yankee, I have never been deceived by an Indian."
Daniel Boone

 

[damYankee]

Another history lesson, the blacks didn't help themselves with their black militias during Reconstruction. The poor souls likely thought their Republican Party white handlers would be there forever. They learned the hard way that the Republicans had more important priorities than them following the presidential election of 1876. For many white Southerners, Reconstruction left more bitter memories than the war itself.

This forum is dedicated to historical facts, not mythology.

 

[CSA Today]

This forum is dedicated to historical facts, not mythology.

Then stick to the historical facts.
"A meddling Yankee troubles himself about every body's matters except his own and repents of everybody's sins except his own." -- General Daniel Harvey Hill

 

[uaskme]

Historical Fact Is that During Reconstruction, the Radical Republicans plan was to eliminate the Democrats Vote and perpetuate a Republican Majority. Republicans didn't fight a War and then to lose those gains during Reconstruction. That is why they turned their backs on Johnson.

If Yankees wanted Social Justice, they could of adopted it for themselves. They Refused. Yankees didn't need a KKK, they had the Federal Government. Not much Equality when you fight a Race War against Native Americans.

Most History is Myth. Fodder for the Sheep.

 

[th'anchoriticsybarite]

Let's get real. Following Appomatox had the remnants of the Confederacy decided to make a stand at Raleigh or anywhere else, in a matter of weeks the Union Army could easily have brought almost half a million men to bear. Unlike the Confederacy they could have deployed huge siege artillery against any fortifications which could have been erected. So when Davis surrenders than is it over.

On the other hand I guess you could be advocating guerilla warfare. As a card carrying member of the 20th and 21st Centuries, I guess looking at Vietnam and other insurgencies you would be expecting a similar response in 1865. I hate to disturb your fantasies. But a victorious North would not have accepted such a response. First they would have forcibly disarmed any civilians they could find. Guerillas who were caught bearing arms would have been summarily executed. If resistance persisted for anything more than a minimal period, blacks would have been armed and told to have at it. Can you imagine some multiple of 100,000 white civilian casualties before even the most die hard Confederate says quit. Enough! I give up!!!

 

[CSA Today]

Let's get real. Following Appomatox had the remnants of the Confederacy decided to make a stand at Raleigh or anywhere else, in a matter of weeks the Union Army could easily have brought almost half a million men to bear. Unlike the Confederacy they could have deployed huge siege artillery against any fortifications which could have been erected. So when Davis surrenders than is it over.

On the other hand I guess you could be advocating guerilla warfare. As a card carrying member of the 20th and 21st Centuries, I guess looking at Vietnam and other insurgencies you would be expecting a similar response in 1865. I hate to disturb your fantasies. But a victorious North would not have accepted such a response. First they would have forcibly disarmed any civilians they could find. Guerillas who were caught bearing arms would have been summarily executed. If resistance persisted for anything more than a minimal period, blacks would have been armed and told to have at it. Can you imagine some multiple of 100,000 white civilian casualties before even the most die hard Confederate says quit. Enough! I give up!!!

I can imagine the US government not getting into a foreign war virtually every generation with so many hostile folks in the backyard.

 

[danny]

Give me a break, the KKK lynched unarmed citizens, they were cowards, bullies and murderers.

Movie material

 

[Eric Wittenberg]

Other nations have fought long against worse odds to secure independence. To fold like they did was a slap in the face to every confederate who hadn't supported secession but accepted the decision and thus gave their loyalty to the CSA.

My goodness, the Lost Cause dies hard, doesn't it?

It's easy to play armchair quarterback 155 years later. Those people were war weary. Men were deserting in droves to go home and do something to protect and feed their families. The public's will to resist had been broken. Any prolonging of the war meant more and more suffering. If you have actually studied the events at Bennett Place--and I have, in sufficient detail to write a book about them--there is no doubt that what happened there was the right thing at the right time.

You can second-guess that all you want 155 years later. But I daresay that you have never commanded an army, have never had to make life or death decisions that impact the lives of others, and have never had to live with blood on your hands. Johnston had done all of those things. You haven't. End of discussion.

 

[atlantis]

My goodness, the Lost Cause dies hard, doesn't it?

It's easy to play armchair quarterback 155 years later. Those people were war weary. Men were deserting in droves to go home and do something to protect and feed their families. The public's will to resist had been broken. Any prolonging of the war meant more and more suffering. If you have actually studied the events at Bennett Place--and I have, in sufficient detail to write a book about them--there is no doubt that what happened there was the right thing at the right time.

You can second-guess that all you want 155 years later. But I daresay that you have never commanded an army, have never had to make life or death decisions that impact the lives of others, and have never had to live with blood on your hands. Johnston had done all of those things. You haven't. End of discussion.

Johnston had no problem living with blood on his hands or making life or death decisions for others. He was a career soldier fighting for a country where chattel slavery was legal, bottom line it wasn't his call to surrender when retreat was still a option.
Good thing for Americans slave owning, Indian killing George Washington didn't call it quits at valley forge.

 

[jackt62]

Johnston's surrender was certainly no "blunder" but a very shrewd move on his part. He managed to obtain terms from Sherman that went well beyond the simple parole measures that Grant imposed on Lee at Appomattox. Of greatest importance to the south and its cause, Johnston was able to secure guarantees that permitted the civil governments of the rebellious states to remain operative, essentially protecting the social, legal, and economic systems that the Confederacy went to war to protect in the first place. Of course, these generous terms outraged the administration in Washington, which rejected them, and forced Sherman to renegotiate a surrender on the basis of the Appomattox agreement.

 

[A. Roy]

Johnston's surrender was certainly no "blunder" but a very shrewd move on his part. He managed to obtain terms from Sherman that went well beyond the simple parole measures that Grant imposed on Lee at Appomattox.

I was thinking the same thing. After Lee's surrender, Johnston's actions seem calculated to bring the conflict to an end with the best terms possible.

The original post for this thread uses the term "blunder," but I think characterizing Johnston's surrender as a blunder is conceived only from the point of view that the Confederacy was such a noble thing that its forces should have kept on maneuvering and fighting as long as possible, regardless of the consequences.

I do think that North Carolina as a last bastion could be an interesting what-if. If Raleigh had become a fortress, my own life would have been much different. Two of my childhood homes were just to the south of the city, where tens of thousands of Union troops camped after the surrender. The line of fortifications around the city traversed the landscape of my childhood and youth: running right past two apartment houses where I lived as a young man; NCSU, where my father worked and I went to university; my favorite movie theater; the high school I attended; and the hospital where I was born. So maybe you can see how the scenario might be interesting for me.

Roy B.

 

[Jamieva]

Bottom line with Richmond having fallen, the president and cabinet scattered and running, and Lee's army surrendered, it is beyond over. If you don't think with that scenario you are in a no win situation, then you are just not looking at this in any realistic manner.