North Carolina

[CSA Today]

That has nothing to do with why Led surrendered. That has nothing to do with why Southern whites no longer decided to fight for an independent Confederate nation.
If you want to start a separate thread about how people of color in the South were treated better post ACW vs in the North then start a new thread.
Leftyhunter

So why are you trying to squeeze

That has nothing to do with why Led surrendered. That has nothing to do with why Southern whites no longer decided to fight for an independent Confederate nation.
If you want to start a separate thread about how people of color in the South were treated better post ACW vs in the North then start a new thread.
Leftyhunter

So why are you trying to squeeze into the conversation: "Alexander is wrong the Southern whites had self rule in their states in the Antebellum era and after 1876 denied Southeners of color the right to participate in the political procces."?

 

[Jamieva]

Didn't I read somewhere that when Davis was captured he was on his way to Florida in hopes for a ship to England, where he would lead a government in exile?

I thought he was trying to get to Texas

 

[leftyhunter]

Payback indeed lasted along time as Southeners of color can attest.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

So why are you trying to squeeze


So why are you trying to squeeze into the conversation: "Alexander is wrong the Southern whites had self rule in their states in the Antebellum era and after 1876 denied Southeners of color the right to participate in the political procces."?

Because it's the truth. Once federal troops left when President Hays was elected Southern whites had home rule us excluded Southeners of color for a long time.
Leftyhunter

 

[Kentucky Derby Cavalier.]

After Lee there was no Confederacy! The individual Johnnie was exhausted, home sick, sick of war and just generally fought out! With no supplies, ammo or leadership the South was a like unto a rattlesnake with its head cut off in that it was dangerous but dead!

The United States had just endured a war which cost over 600,000 plus lives of men in the military and unknown civilian deaths and everyone was sick and tired of war and destruction. Their was no desire to resort to the guerrilla warfare already fought behind the lines, in border states and parts of the deep South.

Confederates knew they had been whipped and their dreams of a new nation were shattered and just wanted to get on with the rest of their lives!
Regards
David

Yah, I think a majority of the South was tired and just wanted it to end.

 

[Kentucky Derby Cavalier.]

Because it's the truth. Once federal troops left when President Hays was elected Southern whites had home rule us excluded Southeners of color for a long time.
Leftyhunter

It's a true shame Black southerners weren't better armed.

 

[RoadDog]

The Southern people had lost their will to continue fighting. Actually, I'd say the Confederacy would have been better served if it surrendered after Lincoln was re-elected, putting the final nail in the coffin.

 

[Lost Cause]

It's a true shame Black southerners weren't better armed.

Or if the north had not waited 50 years to open its borders.

 

[Potomac Pride]

The supporters of the Confedracy fought for one reason and one reason only and that was to preserve and expand slavery. There was no serious movement for Southern political independence post 1865.
Alexander is wrong the Southern whites had self rule in their states in the Antebellum era and after 1876 denied Southeners of color the right to participate in the political procces.
Leftyhunter

When the war began in 1861, the Union did not launch a military campaign against the south to end the practice of slavery but to preserve the Union. Therefore, the supporters of the Confederacy would not all necessarily be fighting to preserve slavery.

 

[leftyhunter]

When the war began in 1861, the Union did not launch a military campaign against the south to end the practice of slavery but to preserve the Union. Therefore, the supporters of the Confederacy would not all necessarily be fighting to preserve slavery.

Except the goal of the Confedracy was to expand slavery such has General Silbey's failed campaign to seize the Southwest. The Ordinances of Secession are quite clear that the main purpose of Secession is to preserve and expand slavery.
Leftyhunter

 

[Potomac Pride]

Except the goal of the Confedracy was to expand slavery such has General Silbey's failed campaign to seize the Southwest. The Ordinances of Secession are quite clear that the main purpose of Secession is to preserve and expand slavery.
Leftyhunter

Some of the southern states do not mention slavery in their Ordinances of Secession

 

[uaskme]

Southerners were fighting for their Homes. They were invaded. The War came 5 months after secession. Lincoln didn't Attack the South because of secession. He said the Union couldn't be divided. With the South gone, the Yankee would of lost their investment in Slavery. You couldn't split that Partnership. So for Economic Reasons Lincoln floated a sacrificial Navy to Charleston. He wanted his Deposit Back.

Most Northerners who fought were in the lowest Economic position. You could hire a substitute for $300. So most Northerners were fighting for a low wage Job. A middle class Northerner could hire a substitute. By late war North had an Economic Boom. Most Northerners never had any intention to enlist or be conscripted. They bought their way out of it. Many Negroes were forced into the Yankee Army. They had no economic options.

South had the 20 Negro Rule, which had very little effect on enlistment. 20 Slaves would be 20,000 dollars by Yankee Math. So, that would be 67 times more money for a deferment than the Yankee option.

 

[leftyhunter]

Some of the southern states do not mention slavery in their Ordinances of Secession

It was certainly implied when they refer to their institutions.
Leftyhunter

 

[JeffFromSyracuse]

Southerners were fighting for their Homes. They were invaded.

Fighting for their homes by seizing Federal installations in the Quasi-war between initial secession and Fort Sumter? Fighting for their homes by firing on an undermanned and mostly-useless military installation that existed pre-Confederacy? Fighting for their homes by launching one minor and two major military operations into Union territory (Sibley's New Mexico Campaign, Bragg into Kentucky, Lee into Maryland) with primary or secondary intent of adding more territory or more states to the Confederacy? Fighting for their homes by trying to get international recognition as a sovereign nation?

This wasn't about self-protection. This was about power.

 

[th'anchoriticsybarite]

Somebody slap me and wake me up from this nightmare. The war was not about slavery? The South was not defeated after Appomattox? I'm reasonably sure I haven't ingested any mind altering drugs? Well not enough to hallucinate this.

Ok. I'll submit that the planter aristocracy who largely controlled all the southern state legislatures promulgated the seccessession resolutions. Because they thought they could get away with it. Because they thought they would win a quick and painless victory. And of course God was on their side.

On the other hand the rank and file poor southerner who actually fought and died in the war, did so because they had a deep and abiding hatred for the North who had persecuted them with the National Bank and trade policies that oppressed them.

But as to Appomattox not being the end. Let me contrast and compare. At the end of the war in 1945, the German army controlled a strip of land 20-30 miles wide and 300 miles long. They remained a cohesive fighting force. If attacked they could defend...they would lose but it would not be an unopposed victory. If ordered they would attack...same result. So too was the South in April '65.

Oh, but what about guerrilla war? Get real. Such wars succeed in the 20th and I suppose in the 21st now that we've entered the new millenium. But only because of the effect of world opinion. What would have happened in Vietnam if the US had firebombed 100, 200, 300 villages in response to guerilla attacks, if world opinion would not have erupted in rage. What would have happened in India when Ghandi had conducted his hunger strikes if the Raj had simply let him die, if they didn't simply kill him outright (as they would have done in the 1800's. What would have happened in the 1960's when MLK conducted his marches had the central government turned a blind eye and massacred the marchers.

So what would have happened had Lee sanctioned a guerilla campaign. Well almost certainly Lee and most of the Confederate generals would have been quickly apprehended and summarily executed. Soo too thousands of wandering Confederate soldiers.

But when they reach their homes discussions emphasizing the general consensus of Union soldiers that the government's relative disregard for the freed slaves dishonored the tremendous sacrifices made by the Union armies/soldier. In other words why did we fight so long and hard for so little change?

But lets accept a Southern guerrilla campaign. What happens after the first hundred, two hundred, five hundred Union deaths. Can you envision a general arming of the former slaves? Can you envision a rampage that results in 10...20...50...100 thousand deaths of white civilians. Remember that for much of the South the white/black population was roughly equal. And especially on the plantations where the whites were a miniscule minority.

And especially after the Lincoln assassination how benevolent would Northern public opinion have been toward the South? NOT!!!

Finally how stupid do you think the average Southern soldier was? Who more than anyone else could appreciate how completely the North had defeated them? The ONLY Southern army which had experience any degree of victory was the AoNV. Even they following a year against Grant should/would have been convinced that as they say on Star Trek "resistance is futile".

 

[damYankee]

It would have been more effective had mayhem taken place in the northwest. As for the KKK, the midwest had pretty much taken the over by the 1920s.

The point is, the KKK was. Seated by by ex Confederates mainly to terrorize freed slaves and resist reconstruction, and of course to keep alive the dreams of the rebellion

 

[Jamieva]

This thread is not really here to discuss the causes of the war. Let's stay focused on OP's premise for starting this discussion.

 

[A. Roy]

This thread is not really here to discuss the causes of the war. Let's stay focused on OP's premise for starting this discussion.

Good point. Thanks for bringing this up. I've been scratching my head over this thread for a while now. The OP said:

>>NC in April of 65 did not have to be the end of the line for the CSA. Johnston surrender was an unforced blunder. The lose of Va. while a serious blow freed up the confederacy to create a realistic center of gravity an a strategy to defend it.
April 65 there were around 105-115, 000 CS troops still in the field.<<

But the thread title, "North Carolina" was what got my attention in the first place, since I have a particular interest in the war here in NC. I guess you could argue whether the 115k figure is accurate, and how available those forces really were. And rather than a "blunder," Johnston's surrender seems calculated to me; he was ready to call it quits. That said, is the OP suggesting that North Carolina could have become "a realistic center of gravity ... to defend" the Confederacy? How would that have worked?

Roy B.

 

[CSA Today]

The point is, the KKK was. Seated by by ex Confederates mainly to terrorize freed slaves and resist reconstruction, and of course to keep alive the dreams of the rebellion

You should keep in mind that the KKk was the only defence against the Union League type black militias led by their carpetbagger and scalawag rulers.

 

[CSA Today]

You should keep in mind that the KKk was the only defence against the Union League type black militias led by their carpetbagger and scalawag rulers.

You should keep in mind that the KKk was the only defence against the Union League type black militias led by their carpetbagger and scalawag rulers.