Golden Thread Nathaniel Lyon: Hero, Devil, or both?

[Patrick H]

L Was

It's easy to throw stones at someone 150 plus year's latter. We have to look at the dynamics of the early Civil War when it appeared that the Confederacy could sieze Union states. The Confederacy had plans to sieze Missouri.
Bold premptive action was needed by an aggressive army officer. That officer was Lyon.
Yes your entitled to call him all the names in the dictionary but Lyon did what he thought was necessary and Lincoln, Congress and even Snead thought Lyon fulfilled his duty to the United States.
Leftyhunter

Okay, man. That's a fair opinion and it's clearly stated. You know I won't agree with every part of it, but I appreciate it.

 

[Bee]

And Phillips had the opportunity to look at 100+ years of information about Lyons that the Congress and Snead never had.

I find it rediculous that you criticize an author you've not read

Hey, Booner: 'Ol Jubal Early was alive during the events he wrote about, but he sure did not let the truth get in the way of the lies

 

[Booner]

Hey, Booner: 'Ol Jubal Early was alive during the events he wrote about, but he sure did not let the truth get in the way of the lies

I don't know much 'Ol Jubal other than something about Gettysburg when Early was late.

Or something like this that.

 

[Lusty Murfax]

You give way too much importance to rioters. The only riots, of which I am aware were those in St. Louis immediately after and in response to Lyon's illegal capture of the Camp Jackson militia training center.

Yes, Douglas dems were not necessarily secessionists. However, in the first State Convention roughly two thirds of the delegates were opposed to Union intervention in Missouri's affairs, Missouri's participation in a war against the Southern States and almost all of them favored negotiation to prevent war.

 

[Lusty Murfax]

??? you said "The Missouri insurgency did not occur in all counties." implying there wasn't guerrilla activity in counties, I've asked which...….

However this bizarre response of yours, begs which counties were entirely devoid of militia, provide a list of those also.. As the 110,000 you quoted includes militia and pretty sure EMM had units in every county, Though I'll look at your examples otherwise

Make sure though the counties you provide had no Home Guard, EMM, PEMM, or MSM, ot garrison detachments of out of state troops

Both are somewhat unusual claims that should be intrigueing

Some of the early regiments were filled with volunteers from Iowa and Illinois. The first two to three Missouri Federal regiments were filled by German Turners from St. Louis. The Union numbers are also bolstered by those serving in more than one organization. There are many examples of returning MSG and/or Confederates who were forced to enlist in local EMM units. The Pawpaw Militias of northwest Missouri are an excellent example of this. Obviously, there were also actual Union volunteer regiments of Missourians from the various districts. Additionally, the numbers of Confederates, Partisan Rangers and Guerrillas were notoriously undercounted.

 

[Lusty Murfax]

I have some maps at home which I can post when I have time. I already posted them over a year ago. Maybe on the weekend I can repost them. Most Union regiments assigned to counterinsurgency left sometime in late 1862. The MSM was only authorized to have 10k men. Most Union Missouri regiments were sent out if state. If Unionists wete threatned in every single county then Union soldiers from Missouri would of deserted in mass to come back home and protect their kinfolk.
Leftyhunter

This is exactly why many Confederate deserters left service in the Trans Mississippi and returned to Missouri. To protect their homes and family from Union torment and pillage.

 

[archieclement]

Some of the early regiments were filled with volunteers from Iowa and Illinois. The first two to three Missouri Federal regiments were filled by German Turners from St. Louis. The Union numbers are also bolstered by those serving in more than one organization. There are many examples of returning MSG and/or Confederates who were forced to enlist in local EMM units. The Pawpaw Militias of northwest Missouri are an excellent example of this. Obviously, there were also actual Union volunteer regiments of Missourians from the various districts. Additionally, the numbers of Confederates, Partisan Rangers and Guerrillas were notoriously undercounted.

If one applies the same standard used to arrive to the Union numbers of simply adding everything together, and not paying any mind to your counting the same multiple times.....the numbers for Missourians in opposition would be over 40k who served in MSG, another 30 plus k who fought for the CSA, then guerrillas. So it would be more like 110k to 75-80k......? However both would be actually counting some who fought for the other side as well.

Which indeed shows why we were considered divided.

Only about half of the MSG initially stayed and entered CSA service, though imagine a lot of later CSA recruits were from the MSG who returned home only to be persecuted. We know they were well represented in the guerrillas

 

[Lusty Murfax]

If one applies the same standard used to arrive to the Union numbers of simply adding everything together, and not paying any mind to your counting the same multiple times.....the numbers for Missourians in opposition would be over 40k who served in MSG, another 30 plus k who fought for the CSA, then guerrillas. So it would be more like 110k to 75-80k......? However both would be actually counting some who fought for the other side as well.

Which indeed shows why we were considered divided.

Only about half of the MSG initially stayed and entered CSA service, though imagine a lot of later CSA recruits were from the MSG who returned home only to be persecuted. We know they were well represented in the guerrillas

The half of the MSG that didn't recruit into Confederate service returned to Missouri. At it's summit, the MSG was alleged to have as many as 20,000 recruits, of which Price could only arm and/or provision about one third. Before Oak Hills, he sent about half of them home to recruit and organize new units, mostly because he couldn't feed and arm them. Those that remained armed themselves from captured Union weapons dropped by the Union forces defeated at Carthage, Oak Hills and Lexington. At Carthage and Oak Hills the MSG captured over 1500 rifles at each battle. At Lexington they captured about 4000 more. Along with the cannon and other captured supplies, including freight, teams & wagons the MSG was well supplied for Elkhorn Tavern. In the end, the MSG was able to capture on the battlefield about one quarter to one third of the firearms that had been stored in the St. Louis Arsenal. Thus, much of the work accomplished by Lyon in denying arms to the State before hostilities began was undone by the individual Missourians under Price.

Many Missouri Confederates resented fighting in the Trans Mississippi and they deserted to return to Missouri and fight as Partisans or Guerrillas, or to merely protect their families and farms. No one will ever know how many served in this capacity. What we do know is that the Union was forced to position in garrison regiments to guard the cities and communication and transportation infrastructure. In time those garrison duties were turned over to the EMM and Militia. In this regard, the Union settled for accepting former MSG and Confederates of doubtful allegiance into their EMM and Militia unit ranks. The stories you (probably) and I grew up hearing about 'Grandpa was a Rebel, but was forced to serve under the Yankees' can be explained thusly.

 

[leftyhunter]

This is exactly why many Confederate deserters left service in the Trans Mississippi and returned to Missouri. To protect their homes and family from Union torment and pillage.

Not likely has there was no Confederate force that could drive off the Kansas troops. A more reasonable explanation is they didn't want to endure the hardships of service in the Confederate Army.
Leftyhunter

 

[Lusty Murfax]

Not likely has there was no Confederate force that could drive off the Kansas troops. A more reasonable explanation is they didn't want to endure the hardships of service in the Confederate Army.
Leftyhunter

The MSM was tasked with driving off the Kansas militia. There were several engagements resulting in combat, in which the Union affiliated MSM interdicted and drove off the invaders. It's true the Confederacy was unable to protect Missourians from the Kansas chickenhawks. However, it is odd that you would fail to understand the strength of a man's desire to return home to defend his family from depredations. The Missourians serving in the Trans Mississippi, as well as those on the east side of the Big River were able to send and receive mail from home through a network of covert couriers.

 

[wausaubob]

No political party in Missouri ran on an explicitly secessionist platform and won. The attempt to create a secessionist movement was based on violence and intimidation. After the shelling of Fort Sumter, the secessionist movement represented a real war. In a real war, celerity and enterprise are important traits. Under those circumstances Lyons and Blair did what the national government needed them to do. Whatever had happened before, they were heroes at that moment of peril.
Secession and slavery had some support in Missouri. However the need for slavery for was insignificant. White settlers and white immigrants had already made slavery unnecessary and a minor element. When secession was defeated and slavery was eliminated, Missouri boomed.
I speculate the ordinary people in Missouri wanted the restoration of law and order, and businessmen in Missouri did not want to be cut off from national railroad expansion, under any circumstances.
Here on the internet one can advocate for which ever version of anarchy one wishes. Its still violent anarchy. And the United States opposed that.
If one is favor of violence as a substitute for voting, such a person is unlikely to admit on the internet that they endorse violence.

 

[archieclement]

Why the war here is confusing is how could we be so divided when 90+% of the population was against secession?

The answer is because war here wasn't really about secession it was Republicans warring on Democrats...….

When Blair/Lyon speak of secessionists everywhere.....they weren't.....we know the convention who was primarily democrat had just overwhelming rejected secession, what they saw were Democrats who they assumed were secessionist when they weren't. Once republicans were appointed to vacated offices they knew they were a decided minority, the only way to maintain power was to war on and disenfranchise the Democrat majority. why the drake constitution postwar. A political minority doing whatever it took to try to maintain power...…and why a state that was decidedly Union at start, became a very bitterly divided one by wars end. And why when postwar democrats regain power we are electing former confederates to voice our displeasure with the former republicans and what they had done…...and why people such as Q and Jesse James become folklore heroes.....

Whether one was a secessionist was irrelevant, simply being a democrat could get one killed or burned out by republican militias

 

[Patrick H]

I speculate the ordinary people in Missouri wanted the restoration of law and order, and businessmen in Missouri did not want to be cut off from national railroad expansion, under any circumstances.

I don't think there's any doubt about this.

 

[Lusty Murfax]

Why the war here is confusing is how could we be so divided when 90+% of the population was against secession?

The answer is because war here wasn't really about secession it was Republicans warring on Democrats...….

When Blair/Lyon speak of secessionists everywhere.....they weren't.....we know the convention had just overwhelming rejected secession, what they saw were Democrats who they assumed were secessionist when they weren't. Once republicans were appointed to vacated offices they knew they were a decided minority, the only way to maintain power was to war on and disenfranchise the Democrat majority. why the drake constitution postwar. A political minority doing whatever it took to try to maintain power...…...

Well said. Though the Convention had defeated those supporting secession, the majority also favored neutrality and a negotiated peace with the seceding South. It is true that the State's Democrats appeared not to be in support of secession in order to save the slave culture here, such as it was.

 

[Lusty Murfax]

At Patrick H's request, my post from another thread:

It is a testament to their defeat that the Federal troops commanded by Lyon, including those fighting physically near him at Oak Hills failed to protect him or to retrieve his body. Instead, they dropped their weapons and fled the field and it was many hours later when they found cover and relative safety in Springfield that they sent out emissaries to Price asking for Lyon's body. Price had argued with McCulloch to join him and chase the Federals north all the way to St. Louis, if necessary to complete their destruction. However, McCulloch refused saying it exceeded his orders.

I've read reports of the disposition of Lyon's body in histories, including Tucker's Westerners In Gray. Apparently, having driven the Yankees off the hill, upon which the main battle had taken place and where Lyon met his demise, the boys wanted to chop up his body and scatter the pieces for the varmints to clean up. Cooler heads prevailed and they carried Lyon's body from the field and left it in repose at a nearby farmhouse for the Federals to collect. Eventually, arrangements were made to convey his body back to his Army, which was in full retreat toward the railhead at Rolla.

 

[archieclement]

At Patrick H's request, my post from another thread:

It is a testament to their defeat that the Federal troops commanded by Lyon, including those fighting physically near him at Oak Hills failed to protect him or to retrieve his body. Instead, they dropped their weapons and fled the field and it was many hours later when they found cover and relative safety in Springfield that they sent out emissaries to Price asking for Lyon's body. Price had argued with McCulloch to join him and chase the Federals north all the way to St. Louis, if necessary to complete their destruction. However, McCulloch refused saying it exceeded his orders.

I've read reports of the disposition of Lyon's body in histories, including Tucker's Westerners In Gray. Apparently, having driven the Yankees off the hill, upon which the main battle had taken place and where Lyon met his demise, the boys wanted to chop up his body and scatter the pieces for the varmints to clean up. Cooler heads prevailed and they carried Lyon's body from the field and left it in repose at a nearby farmhouse for the Federals to collect. Eventually, arrangements were made to convey his body back to his Army, which was in full retreat toward the railhead at Rolla.

I read while the body was in an icehouse on the farm a MSG officer noted what a difference of the where the body was, and his soul being in hell

 

[Lusty Murfax]

Well, that's the Lord's business and I wouldn't opine on it. But I understand your point.

 

[Lusty Murfax]

I can't imagine a scenario in which Price's MSG would abandon his body under similar circumstances. Old Pap was almost worshiped by the boys serving in the MSG.

 

[leftyhunter]

The MSM was tasked with driving off the Kansas militia. There were several engagements resulting in combat, in which the Union affiliated MSM interdicted and drove off the invaders. It's true the Confederacy was unable to protect Missourians from the Kansas chickenhawks. However, it is odd that you would fail to understand the strength of a man's desire to return home to defend his family from depredations. The Missourians serving in the Trans Mississippi, as well as those on the east side of the Big River were able to send and receive mail from home through a network of covert couriers.

Most Confederate Missourians served out of state. They did not see the necessity of staying behind in Missouri to protect their families. Those who became guerrillas did so to torment Unionists.
Leftyhunter

 

[archieclement]

Most Confederate Missourians served out of state. They did not see the necessity of staying behind in Missouri to protect their families. Those who became guerrillas did so to torment Unionists.
Leftyhunter

Seriously now? Sources for both claims………..

People who join a military do so thinking its the best way to protect their families. They also do so expecting to win, which in the case of MO confederates would have been reclaiming the state

And theres no shortage of first hand accounts from guerrillas themselves as to what motivated them, and protecting family, friends, and neighbors was the common theme.Dont think I've came across one saying he just wanted to torment unionists......much less it being any kind of common theme as to motivation…...