Musket Gun identification

[Rfourn]

Morning al
My name is Bob Fournier and I was just given my Great Grandfathers Musket Gun.
He was born in 1850 in Quebec, Canada and settled in Mont-Louis Quebec.
I was hoping someone could give me information on the gun and hopefully try to find some of the missing parts.

 

[BartlbyAdams]

View attachment 560671View attachment 560672View attachment 560673Morning al
My name is Bob Fournier and I was just given my Great Grandfathers Musket Gun.
He was born in 1850 in Quebec, Canada and settled in Mont-Louis Quebec.
I was hoping someone could give me information on the gun and hopefully try to find some of the missing parts.

What a beautiful survivor! Fantastic that it has stayed within your family. I'm only an apprentice level Gunsmith but I would highly recommend not doing anything to it but gently cleaning and oiling to preserve her beauty. It looks like you're only missing the ram rod which is probably the most likely part to be missing and a hard one to find. Luckily, speaking for myself, I think a reproduction ram rod is the only fitting compliment you could add.

I'm not an expert on makers marks but it is likely European by the crown shaped one, speculation off the photo of course.

 

[OldSarge79]

The two markings on the barrel are British.... Birmingham proof and view stamps from the mid 1800's. So the barrel, at least, is from England.
That would fit with the gun coming from Canada.

 

[Rfourn]

What a beautiful survivor! Fantastic that it has stayed within your family. I'm only an apprentice level Gunsmith but I would highly recommend not doing anything to it but gently cleaning and oiling to preserve her beauty. It looks like you're only missing the ram rod which is probably the most likely part to be missing and a hard one to find. Luckily, speaking for myself, I think a reproduction ram rod is the only fitting compliment you could add.

I'm not an expert on makers marks but it is likely European by the crown shaped one, speculation off the photo of course.

 

[Rfourn]

Thank You Bart, I will deff. Take your advise.
Yes the ram rod is missing and I don't even know how it connects to the barrel and the other part missing is the butt Plate at the other end.
I've identified markings as Birmingham marking so definitely a British gun. I believe it was made between 1813-1904.
Is it a Musketoon? Because it is shorter then a regular Musket 47 inches.

 

[Rfourn]

The two markings on the barrel are British.... Birmingham proof and view stamps from the mid 1800's. So the barrel, at least, is from England.
That would fit with the gun coming from Canada.

Thank You, was a war gun or maybe a hunting gun? Maybe used by the natives?

 

[OldSarge79]

It's a civilian rifle, probably for hunting. The checkering on the wrist indicates some quality.
It is not a military or Indian gun.

 

[JOHN42768]

Thank You, was a war gun or maybe a hunting gun? Maybe used by the natives?

Welcome, enjoy

 

[Rfourn]

It's a civilian rifle, probably for hunting. The checkering on the wrist indicates some quality.
It is not a military or Indian gun.

Thank You!

 

[Conquerordie]

It looks like the under rib is missing the thimbles that would have held the ramrod to the underside of the barrel. Another nice feature is the barrel looks to have silver bands inlaid at the breech.

 

[bayonet]

Every Town & Village back in the day had a gunsmith, blacksmith, tavern, etc. It was assembled with whatever parts a gunsmith could get to make a decent firearm to sell.

 

[7thWisconsin]

It has what's known as a "back action lock" because the mainspring is in the rear of the lock. Looks to be a pretty typical 19th century shoulder gun, but it's really nice that it's still in your family. It's also a good reminder that not everyone was taking a state of the art gun out hunting. By the time your ancestor was 20 years old, this gun was obsolete, but still functional. As long as you can get powder, lead and caps you can keep shooting.

 

[Rfourn]

It looks like the under rib is missing the thimbles that would have held the ramrod to the underside of the barrel. Another nice feature is the barrel looks to have silver bands inlaid at the breech.

Thanks I didn't noticed that.I wish I had a picture of the same gun to give me an idea what it should look like.

 

[Rfourn]

Every Town & Village back in the day had a gunsmith, blacksmith, tavern, etc. It was assembled with whatever parts a gunsmith could get to make a decent firearm to sell.

Thanks for your feedback. Specifically what makes you believe that this is a parts gun?

 

[R. Porter]

First, let me state that I am not an expert, nor am I a well-versed amateur.

From what reading I have done, I understand that the back action lock dates to the 1840's or later. It is usually not a military lock, although I have seen some on French or Belgian made military firearms. That circular embellishment at the end of the trigger guard has a name when discussing trade weapons made by gun makers in the U.S. Unfortunately I have forgotten what that was and my reference sources are back in Virginia. I suspect that your gun was a British trade gun made between 1840 and 1900. It may have had a full stock. It was not unusual for Native Americans to remove part of the stock to reduce weight and remove the butt plate to make it into a tool for scraping hides. It would appear that the ramrod tubes fixed to the rib under the barrel after the forestock was removed have been lost. Often, Native American owned weapons were decorated with tacks. Later gun owners sometimes removed the tacks to make the gun more sellable. If this is done you might notice holes with rings around them on the stock. The holes were made by the tacks while the rings around them were made by the tack heads being pressed into the wood. If these were period tacks and not added later the holes should be square in cross section. Checkered hand grips appeared on trade guns during the 19th century.

You might want to check the butt of the stock for damage. One strategy followed by Native Americans was to pour powder down the barrel, drop or spit the lead ball (slightly smaller in diameter that the ball the gun is supposed to use) down the barrel and then instead of ramming it down, slam the gun butt on the ground to force the ball to the bottom of the barrel. Since the gun would often be used for targets of relatively short range, the shooter didn't have to seat it perfectly.

I don't know that trade guns were only sold to Native Americans or that Native Americans were the only ones who made the modifications like the ones found on your gun. If, in fact, your gun was originally owned by Native Americans, you may have an interesting family story to discover. I'll try to get back to my reference sources as soon as I can and see what they can tell me.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I may have found what you are looking for. You might want to turn the other cheek… in photos anyways.

The Lyman cap & ball Trade Rifle & Plaines Rifles are very similar to the one you have.

Link to Lyman Trade Rifle parts:

https://www.lymanproducts.com/amfile/file/download/file/263/category/853/

The spiral finial on the trigger guard is very distinctive. I only saw a single example except on the Lyman kits.

Lyman sells muzzle loader rifle kits. The hand grip part of the trigger guard is the same shape as that on your piece. It also has the sliding dovetail barrels for the ramrod.

The model that most fits is the "Trade Rifle." It has a single locking wedge on the 1/2 stock without a metal cap on the hand grip.

It has a single trigger, unlike the "Plaines Rifle" I used as an example. It simply had the best image quality that I found.

It could be that Lyman used the trigger guard detail & single fore stock pin because it was how trade guns were made. In any case, I did not see a single example of it anywhere else.

Link:

British trade musket - Canada's History

Musket evokes spiritual side of hunting.

www.canadashistory.ca

The Lyman Trade Rifles are of high quality. The reviews are consistently excellent. An Italian company makes them.

Conclusion: There are some differences between the Lyman & trade gun pattern rifle in the photos. At least it puts you onto a possible source for parts.

Lyman made the Trade Rifle in .54 caliber, which is unusual. That is a potential source for a period correct ram rod. The sliding dovetail rammer guides may not be a perfect fit, but should be no trouble to adjust to fit. Same with the front sight. Obviously you don't want to start filing away on your piece. However, a gunsmith could easily make the Lyman parts fit.

Good luck, post photos when you restore your family relic.

Northwest Trade Guns

This image shows the same proof marks as your piece on an English Northwest Trade Gun. It is from the article liked. If you look close, it looks a lot like the same spiral trigger guard finial as yours.

Link:

English Proof Marks

Does anyone know about how to find a date range for these English proof marks from the barrel of this smooth bore gun? Any help would sure be appreciated!

www.muzzleloadingforum.com

Northwest Trade Guns had a very distinctive what we would call a logo. This distinctive dragon plate was a fixture of flintlocks until 1877; cap & ball rifles until the end of the Century. It was not always this elaborate. Other examples

I knew almost nothing about Northwest Trade Guns before starting this search. The Longhunters that came over the mountains into Tennessee have been a long time interest. This was something new & the dragon plates are really something. The link is to the article where these images came from.


Link:

https://www.speakingcedar.com/in-depth- northwest-guns.html

Link:

Antique Saint Louis Marked 54 Cal Plains Percussion Rifle F. Hellingha

Percussion 54 Caliber Rifle, back Action, Barrel Marked "F. Hellinghaus St Louis" Half Stock length Stock. Lock Not Marked. Frederick Hellinghaus was active in St. Louis from 1840-1847. After moving from Baltimore Maryland. He eventually settled in San Francisco, Ca Circa: Mid 19th Century Size...

kentantiquegallery.com

 

[Conquerordie]

Personally, I don't think it's a parts gun at all. Looks completely English too me. I think the wood has been cleaned, the missing butt plate probably had a thin extension, maybe kinda pointed. Can't tell but it looks like it has one? Wedge holding the barrel to the forestock? The inletting is well done, and the architecture of the stock is Very mid century English IMHO. Stocks been overly cleaned.

 

[Old Soldier]

Most trade guns were flintlock of the usual pattern. The percussion backlock was quite high priced and appeared late 1830s/1840s. It is similar to the first pattern Brunswick rifle lock:

BUT, it is half-stocked with a straight butt taking a 'flat' butt plate, so likely to be British or Belgian. The barrel is a civilian one as it has the 'gold' band and is octagonal to round, almost certainly with a 'hook' connection with the rear breech face/tang and the triggerguard has no provision for a sling. It only has ONE wedge and the barrel has a rib underneath in typical civilian fashion. Yours has two 'spaces' or rounded areas where tubes would be silver soldered on to hold the ramrod. A typical example:

Removal of lock and barrel would reveal stamps and markings which MAY be helpful, at least showing assemblers marks like: X V l l (made with a flat edge into wood and metal (edges of lock!) which would prove a) age (pre 1860) and b) one assembly. It may also show makers initials, but tracing these can be difficult.

 

[bayonet]

Thanks for your feedback. Specifically what makes you believe that this is a parts gun?

From your limited pics. The barrel does not fit well there at the barrel tang and stock. Look at that space. That hammer may not be original to that lockplate. Screws are all different looking, some look older than others. Fore end of the stock looks to have been cut down. No buttplate if it ever had one but most muskets of that time period had one. The rear tail pipe looks really low compared to where the other tail pipes would of been, maybe a very thick ramrod? Yes you been told a story of Family history but sorry to say many to include himself have fallen victim to that. Of course not saying in your case it ain't true. I inherited a supposedly French Rev War musket from dear old Dad when he passed along with a "story" on it. Well did my research and it was made 30 years after the Rev War ended. It was a popular model that was around for many years. The "story" total BS!

 

[Old Soldier]

From your limited pics. The barrel does not fit well there at the barrel tang and stock. Look at that space. That hammer may not be original to that lockplate. Screws are all different looking, some look older than others. Fore end of the stock looks to have been cut down. Yes you been told a story of Family history but sorry to say many to include himself have fallen victim to that. Of course not saying in your case it ain't true. I inherited a supposedly French Rev War musket from dear old Dad when he passed along with a "story" on it. Well did my research and it was made 30 years after the Rev War ended. It was a popular model that was around for many years. The "story" total BS!

The fit at barrel and tang is because the barrel is hooked into the standing breech attached to the stock before wedging down. It is quite common in light shotguns used in Britain in the 1840s. It enables the barrel to be easily removed for cleaning in hot water without the possibility of damaging the stock and lock. (Black Powder shooter know what I mean) Yes, screws and even hammers are often replaced or added when missing too.