Mystery Gun

ejs7681

Cadet
Joined
Oct 1, 2024
Hello!

My name is Erin. I've got an item that could possibly be from the civil war era. It's likely it from an earlier time, but I'm starting here. A family friend passed away, and I have been helping with the estate. This gun was part of it. The only information I have is that it was found in a field possibly in Kansas by the great grandfather of a current 55-year-old. Not sure if it was Kansas, but that is where the great grandfather lived. I did find out that it was a rifle that had been sawed off at some point. In info or a nudge in the right direction is greatly appreciated!

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Hi Erin, a gun of this style would most definitely be a lot older than someone's great great grandfather! It would be in suspiciously good condition being found in a field seeing that it's a flintlock style hammer exposed to over a century of weather. I'm not well versed in pre war guns but it would most definitely predate the civil war with that firing mechanism if it turns out to be authentic.
 
The trigger guard has a fitting for a loop for a sling and the barrel band has a fitting and loop. While a sling would be useful on a long gun, it would be useless on a pistol. However, it does indicate that the trigger guard came off of a military firearm. While some Revolutionary War long arms had a loop mounted on the trigger guard, the U.S. model 1795 and first model 1816 muskets had a separate mount just in front of the trigger guard. As more model 1816's were produced the mount was changed to the trigger guard itself. The hammer appears to be of a style used on older weapons such as Revolutionary War period muskets and early long rifles. It has a "swan neck" appearance rather than the wider version with heart shaped cutout seen on U.S. military muskets. The lock plate is flat with two vertical lines behind the hammer. This style is often seen on long rifles; military weapons frequently have a lock plate with a curved surface, think banana rather than flat. The barrel band is backwards from the way it typically appears on military long arms. The square in its side is for a spring to hold it in place, but there is no spring. The barrel looks like it might be held to the stock by pins (not the hole in the stock under the barrel between the band and the muzzle of the weapon.) The barrel seems thicker than for typical muskets. The lock bolt plate is triangular which is more like a long rifle or fowling gun. Military weapons, both long guns and hand guns usually have two circular ends connected by an L-shaped or diagonal piece for their lock bolt plate. Looking at the barrel and the tang which attaches to the stock, you can see that the tang was once separated from the barrel and screwed back on. There are two notches at the base of the barrel that don't quite match up with the two notches on the tang. On the butt of the pistol are incised lines that indicate where a butt cap should be. Instead of a butt cap there appears to be darkened color which is partially rubbed off in spots. I can't tell if this coloring is from oxidation of a metal butt cap that has disappeared or a faux butt cap to appear as if there is a metal one.

My guess is that this weapon is a hodge-podge of parts, or franken-pistol. There are various reasons and times this might be done. If it was done to make a functioning firearm, this suggests that there was someone with limited resources. Examples could be people on the frontier trying to make working firearms out of parts from damaged firearms or Native Americans trying to come up with a firearm. I don't see any Native American style decoration added and it seems to be in reasonable condition which would tend to argue against Native Americans but that's not a deal breaker. I would think a gunsmith would not put a barrel band on backwards and would probably have the correct spring to keep it in place, but I suppose that is not a deal breaker either. It could be a Civil War period or later composite weapon put together in Mexico, there are a lot of composite swords that were put together made out of pieces parts of different swords in Mexico from that time. Two other scenarios that I could come up with are that it was put together as a movie prop between about 1890 and 1960, or it was cobbled together by an antique dealer trying to make a buck. Any of these possible histories and others I can't even imagine could end up placing it in a field in Kansas, but the origin story is uncertain so there is no firm time and place where it must show up.

This being said, I am not a firearms expert by any means. There are plenty of others with far more knowledge and experience who can probably tell you much more with more certainty than I can.
 
The barrel band and trigger guard are from a military musket, probably American, and I think the barrel is too because that´s just a massive smoothbore for a pistol. The lock and back plate, though, I think are from a civilian long arm. Not a pistol, though, because pistol locks are a lot smaller and more delicate. The stock is crude, but it has some charm - the carving around the tang is nice, and the attempt to mod on the butt plates is cute in its own way. I don´t think it saw any hard service because it looks like it´s in pretty good shape. I don´t think it was a stage or film prop, though. They weren´t that careful about details back then. I´m gonna hazard a complete guess that it was a wall decoration that was cobbled together from parts in the early 20th century when ¨colonial American¨ became a home decor. Maybe at some point it became a kid´s toy and the kid lost it - hence the finding story. Although I wouldn´t do it without a gunsmith´s approval, I think it looks firable. The lock certainly looks like it´s functional, that is without looking at the springs. I don´t think it´s a valuable pistol, but it has a certain charm. If I were you, I´d find a nice spot on the mantle or wall for it.
 
As mentioned above, this appears to be a pistol cobbled together from parts either in a time of desperation or just a desire to waste-not-want-not.

The lock has features that appear Germanic or Low Countries; the doubled grove at the rear of the lockplate, the cock and the squared off frizzen. I can't see it from the angles provided, but bonus point if the pan is squared off.
Diagram-of-a-Flintlock-rifle.png

Pistol Lock.jpg


Note the lock features of this Potsdam pistol, where the design features mentioned above appeared on musket locks throughout mid-to-late 18th century NW Europe

Historical Context - *what would drive someone to exert the effort to make this?*

Before the arrival of substantial French aide (@1778), the Continental Dragoon Regiments were desperately short of pistols (and everything else). Since each Dragoon should have been issued one sabre, two pistols & one carbine, the Squadron Quartermaster Sergeants had to get creative (captured British weapons, cumbersome full sized muskets, plowshares-beaten-into-swords, &etc).

I'm not saying it's definitely RevWar, but if displayed with all the features explored and explained it'd make a dandy display as such.

Fun fact that brings us back to the Civil War era - the father of Henry Deringer (who brought us the weapon used by Booth to assassinate President Lincoln) was contracted @ 1777 (?) to make Dragoon pistols for the Continental Army from his shop in Easton PA (relatively outside the reach of the Crown forces at that time).

No idea how many he made or if they were specifically marked.

 
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@ejs7681

With regards to The only information I have is that it was found in a field possibly in Kansas by the great grandfather of a current 55-year-old. Not sure if it was Kansas, but that is where the great grandfather lived.

Too bad you don't have a specific location, because if it was found alongside one of the wagon trails that western settlers used pre- and post- Civil War its the sort of cheap firearm that one of poor folk would have purchased for close protection.

Just speculation, of course.

PS - can you measure the bore diameter? Holding it next to a dime or nickel would work in a pinch.
 
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The trigger guard has a fitting for a loop for a sling and the barrel band has a fitting and loop. While a sling would be useful on a long gun, it would be useless on a pistol. However, it does indicate that the trigger guard came off of a military firearm. While some Revolutionary War long arms had a loop mounted on the trigger guard, the U.S. model 1795 and first model 1816 muskets had a separate mount just in front of the trigger guard. As more model 1816's were produced the mount was changed to the trigger guard itself. The hammer appears to be of a style used on older weapons such as Revolutionary War period muskets and early long rifles. It has a "swan neck" appearance rather than the wider version with heart shaped cutout seen on U.S. military muskets. The lock plate is flat with two vertical lines behind the hammer. This style is often seen on long rifles; military weapons frequently have a lock plate with a curved surface, think banana rather than flat. The barrel band is backwards from the way it typically appears on military long arms. The square in its side is for a spring to hold it in place, but there is no spring. The barrel looks like it might be held to the stock by pins (not the hole in the stock under the barrel between the band and the muzzle of the weapon.) The barrel seems thicker than for typical muskets. The lock bolt plate is triangular which is more like a long rifle or fowling gun. Military weapons, both long guns and hand guns usually have two circular ends connected by an L-shaped or diagonal piece for their lock bolt plate. Looking at the barrel and the tang which attaches to the stock, you can see that the tang was once separated from the barrel and screwed back on. There are two notches at the base of the barrel that don't quite match up with the two notches on the tang. On the butt of the pistol are incised lines that indicate where a butt cap should be. Instead of a butt cap there appears to be darkened color which is partially rubbed off in spots. I can't tell if this coloring is from oxidation of a metal butt cap that has disappeared or a faux butt cap to appear as if there is a metal one.

My guess is that this weapon is a hodge-podge of parts, or franken-pistol. There are various reasons and times this might be done. If it was done to make a functioning firearm, this suggests that there was someone with limited resources. Examples could be people on the frontier trying to make working firearms out of parts from damaged firearms or Native Americans trying to come up with a firearm. I don't see any Native American style decoration added and it seems to be in reasonable condition which would tend to argue against Native Americans but that's not a deal breaker. I would think a gunsmith would not put a barrel band on backwards and would probably have the correct spring to keep it in place, but I suppose that is not a deal breaker either. It could be a Civil War period or later composite weapon put together in Mexico, there are a lot of composite swords that were put together made out of pieces parts of different swords in Mexico from that time. Two other scenarios that I could come up with are that it was put together as a movie prop between about 1890 and 1960, or it was cobbled together by an antique dealer trying to make a buck. Any of these possible histories and others I can't even imagine could end up placing it in a field in Kansas, but the origin story is uncertain so there is no firm time and place where it must show up.

This being said, I am not a firearms expert by any means. There are plenty of others with far more knowledge and experience who can probably tell you much more with more certainty than I can.
Thank you so much! I knew going in to this that we would probably never know for sure, but I LOVE all of the possibilities you have named. Thank you so much for taking the time to explain all of that!
 
I cannot figure out the significance of the five pointed star. Anyone?
Maybe it was the mark of whomever worked on the pistol and put it together. Similar marks appear on the blades of Nathan Starr model 1813 cavalry sabers. It has been suggested that these are the marks of sub-contractors who supplied the blades. Or it could just be decorative.

Something that I am curious about and forgot to mention is that blocky looking thing behind the hammer. Since that is something I never see on a lock I feel that it must be significant. Does anyone know what that is?
 
The lily is the french flower. Something about that flat lock with the 2 lines behnd the cock, and the shape of the cock itself say ¨American manufacture¨ to me. It´s a civilian lock, though, not military. It could be as late as the 1820s or 30s, though.
The OP says the great-grandfather of the 55-year-old friend found it in Kansas. So working backwards... the friend´s father is an early Boomer. His grandfather would have maybe been born circa 1915-1925 (?) His great-grandfather maybe in the 1880 or 90s (?) We don´t know how old G-Gfather was when he found it. Could have been as late as the 1970s (though I doubt it!) I forget where I´m trying to go here, but I guess I don´t want to get distracted into thinking ¨found it in a field in Kansas¨ means that it had been lying there since the days of Bleeding Kansas or the cattle drives.
 
Something that I am curious about and forgot to mention is that blocky looking thing behind the hammer. Since that is something I never see on a lock I feel that it must be significant. Does anyone know what that is?

If you're referring to the annotated photo that names the features of a flint lock that I posted above in #6, that's a safety lock often found on civilian-made weapons meant for use onboard ships or coach/horseback. You'll see them often on 'blunderbusses'
 
The barrel band and trigger guard are from a military musket, probably American, and I think the barrel is too because that´s just a massive smoothbore for a pistol. The lock and back plate, though, I think are from a civilian long arm. Not a pistol, though, because pistol locks are a lot smaller and more delicate. The stock is crude, but it has some charm - the carving around the tang is nice, and the attempt to mod on the butt plates is cute in its own way. I don´t think it saw any hard service because it looks like it´s in pretty good shape. I don´t think it was a stage or film prop, though. They weren´t that careful about details back then. I´m gonna hazard a complete guess that it was a wall decoration that was cobbled together from parts in the early 20th century when ¨colonial American¨ became a home decor. Maybe at some point it became a kid´s toy and the kid lost it - hence the finding story. Although I wouldn´t do it without a gunsmith´s approval, I think it looks firable. The lock certainly looks like it´s functional, that is without looking at the springs. I don´t think it´s a valuable pistol, but it has a certain charm. If I were you, I´d find a nice spot on the mantle or wall for it.
There are plenty of .69 cal pistols from the flint lock era. This being a cut down musket it might be bigger than that. Still, those old flintlock pistols were made with large caliber bores. I am curious as to what his piece is.
 
The lily is the french flower. Something about that flat lock with the 2 lines behnd the cock, and the shape of the cock itself say ¨American manufacture¨ to me. It´s a civilian lock, though, not military. It could be as late as the 1820s or 30s, though.
The OP says the great-grandfather of the 55-year-old friend found it in Kansas. So working backwards... the friend´s father is an early Boomer. His grandfather would have maybe been born circa 1915-1925 (?) His great-grandfather maybe in the 1880 or 90s (?) We don´t know how old G-Gfather was when he found it. Could have been as late as the 1970s (though I doubt it!) I forget where I´m trying to go here, but I guess I don´t want to get distracted into thinking ¨found it in a field in Kansas¨ means that it had been lying there since the days of Bleeding Kansas or the cattle drives.
Back in the early 1990's I knew a guy who couldn't have been 60, more likely early 50's or younger, whose father fought in World War 1 and whose grandfather was a Confederate cavalryman from South Carolina. I think he said his grandfather joined up at 16. So if my friend was born in 1945 and his father was say, 55, when he was born, that would put his father's birth at 1890. Working backwards, his grandfather would have been 45 when his father was born.

I was a bit younger, but my grandfathers were born in 1882 and 1884. My great grandfathers were born in 1849, 1861, 1824, and 1854. I would be afraid to find out when my friend's great grandfathers were born.
 
Early American gunsmiths (mid-18th century, particularly in Pennsylvania) often came from the western Germanies and brought the lock style with them. The Prussians and low countries continued with this style lock up until the French Charleville influence during the Napoleonic Wars.
00093_a.jpg

 
There are plenty of .69 cal pistols from the flint lock era. This being a cut down musket it might be bigger than that. Still, those old flintlock pistols were made with large caliber bores. I am curious as to what his piece is.

If only someone would tell us the bore size.
She's moved on to asking the same questions on social media.
 

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