muffin top button with pre-1875 eagle ...

[johnkris]

The button on the right is a muffin top with a pre-1875 eagle. Can't find it in Albert. A positive ID would be great. Maybe it's not a general service button ...

 

[UCVRelics]

The one on the right is a officers button, what is the back-mark?

 

[johnkris]

The one on the right is a officers button, what is the back-mark?

No marks. They're both blank.

 

[johnkris]

The one on the right is a officers button, what is the back-mark?

GS-13, I'm guessing.

 

[johnkris]

15 stars, three arrows. Close to GS 6.

 

[UCVRelics]

Button was intended for officers, depicting patriotic symbolism of eagle grasping arrows for war and olive branch for peace. Backmark: blank back (no text), iron back, two rings, late 19th century could be 20th century. Three part officer button, hat or sleeve size, 14mm to 16mm.

 

[johnkris]

Button was intended for officers, depicting patriotic symbolism of eagle grasping arrows for war and olive branch for peace. Backmark: blank back (no text), iron back, two rings, late 19th century could be 20th century. Three part officer button, hat or sleeve size, 14mm to 16mm.

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I get the great seal part but was wondering about blankback buttons. In WW2 collecting, they seem to be indicate pre and post-war buttons. Would the same be true for Civil War? I thought because of the eagle's design it was pre-1875.

 

[UCVRelics]

You can't date them based on the eagle design. This is a way way post CW button.

 

[Salterr]

@johnkris Wide rim buttons, floating shanks and Tin backs are all going to lean post war. The eagle with shield design didn't change for a large amount of time on officer buttons until the 1902 version of the great seal. The eagles are slightly different from civil war to post but the other key things found on the button are better identifiers

 

[Salterr]

I get the great seal part but was wondering about blankback buttons. In WW2 collecting, they seem to be indicate pre and post-war buttons. Would the same be true for Civil War? I thought because of the eagle's design it was pre-1875.

 

[johnkris]

@johnkris Wide rim buttons, floating shanks and Tin backs are all going to lean post war. The eagle with shield design didn't change for a large amount of time on officer buttons until the 1902 version of the great seal. The eagles are slightly different from civil war to post but the other key things found on the button are better identifiers

tin back ... I'll remember that one. Floating shank?

 

[johnkris]

Button was intended for officers, depicting patriotic symbolism of eagle grasping arrows for war and olive branch for peace. Backmark: blank back (no text), iron back, two rings, late 19th century could be 20th century. Three part officer button, hat or sleeve size, 14mm to 16mm.

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I just assumed muffin top buttons were strictly late 19th century. And after reading about the prussian eagle style, just thought it was a strong indication.

 

[Salterr]

@johnkris On the back, the shank where the thread goes through to fasten thread to the coat. See how it is not soldered onto the back but rather there's a hole cut into the back and the shank is coming out of it? Most likely that moves. It's referring to how the shank kind of floats up and down instead of being fixed to the back. Also the faces get used and reused by different makers sometimes. The back mark is the more important in those cases and the other factors mentioned help when it's blank when you include the other characteristics of the button.

 

[johnkris]

@johnkris On the back, the shank where the thread goes through to fasten thread to the coat. See how it is not soldered onto the back but rather there's a hole cut into the back and the shank is coming out of it? Most likely that moves. It's referring to how the shank kind of floats up and down instead of being fixed to the back

Got it. Thanks. Floating shanks are post civil war.

 

[Salterr]

Got it. Thanks. Floating shanks are post civil war.

Mostly yes, there may be an example here and there of war time but one characteristic alone isn't enough. The button as a whole needs to be looked at with its other characteristics

 

[johnkris]

Mostly yes, there may be an example here and there of war time but one characteristic alone isn't enough. The button as a whole needs to be looked at with its other characteristics

A how to spot civil war buttons is a youtube video at least.

 

[Salterr]

A how to spot civil war buttons is a youtube video at least.

That would be helpful. Rafael from Shilohrelics makes YouTube videos about certain items he has in shop. While it's not button related I'm sure you could ask for a video. The button books are nice to identify the backmarks but tricky to date them down enough. Some of the buttons give wide timelines when the back marks don't change very fast

 

[johnkris]

That would be helpful. Rafael from Shilohrelics makes YouTube videos about certain items he has in shop. While it's not button related I'm sure you could ask for a video. The button books are nice to identify the backmarks but tricky to date them down enough. Some of the buttons give wide timelines when the back marks don't change very fast

USMF has some great button pages and I've contributed with some pics of great seal button backmarks. Could be nobody wants to put out something that isn't complete which isn't possible because there is no complete knowledge of even the union button situation during the war.

 

[Salterr]

That's the thing I guess. For as well documented as this war is, things get lost along the way. Even the early pioneers of the community have gotten things wrong in their books because of how limited the paper trail was. There have been corrections but a full comprehensive book of any kind, not just buttons, would be a great asset for us in any topic. I'd love to write one about insignia as that's my main collecting focus but there's still a bunch of good books still referred to as the Bibles of their respective fields

 

[johnkris]

That's the thing I guess. For as well documented as this war is, things get lost along the way. Even the early pioneers of the community have gotten things wrong in their books because of how limited the paper trail was. There have been corrections but a full comprehensive book of any kind, not just buttons, would be a great asset for us in any topic. I'd love to write one about insignia as that's my main collecting focus but there's still a bunch of good books still referred to as the Bibles of their respective fields

I did finally buy that Albert book, a bargain at a hundred, but you can tell its far from comprehensive. Layout is a bit confounding, too.