Modern Muzzle Loaders vs. ACW Era - Loading

[hrobalabama]

A good question as I don't ever remember reading about soldiers in the CW cleaning muskets.
When I was in the Army during the Korean War, when we came back to our quarters or tents, there would be a large bucket boiling on a fire. We would strip the weapons and dip them in the boiling water and swab out the bores and gas ports. And that was using smokeless ammo in MI's and carbines. In shooting black powder, I dip the Minie's in beeswax. It gets in the grooves and base. In shooting revolvers. I seat the ball on the charge and coat the cylinders with powder lube , which prevents chain fires and lubes the bullets. I fire muskets in original and reproductions. The get pretty dirty but so far no problems.

 

[johan_steele]

There must have been many battles that went on for hours where troops were resupplied with ammo. How did they clean musket barrels in the field and on the run? Maybe just water from the canteen and a couple of quick swipes?

Water from canteens and urine in a tight spot. At Kenashaw Mtn & at Allatoona US troops were noted relieving themselves into the barrels of their weapons. It works if you have no other choice but to be honest I don't like the idea of anything that tender that close to a scalding muzzle. No thank you very much.

A collector I'm an acquintance w/ (he has asked me on occasion to authenticate items) has a dug P53 from Georgia. The stock & barrel were shattered just ahead of the breach by something and the ramrod is still down the barrel. The worm is evident on the end of the ramrod from the breach end. I suspect someone was cleaning his weapon when an arty round came calling. It's not the kind of thing I would ever show my wife as it's quite possible that if the owner was holding that P53 when it happened... bad things happened to him.

 

[Specster]

There must have been many battles that went on for hours where troops were resupplied with ammo. How did they clean musket barrels in the field and on the run? Maybe just water from the canteen and a couple of quick swipes?

This is what I am trying to make sense of. I would imagine modern muzzle load powders are cleaner but still they get difficult to load pretty quickly.

I know that when I saw them fire the brass napoleon cannon in my town they cleaned it twice between rounds...and that was without a projectile. That may have just been for dramatic effect.

 

[johan_steele]

Firing blanks creates MUCH more fouling than firing live rounds. I'm no fan of Pyrodex, I don't belive it is really that much cleaner than traditional black powder and prefer Goex, Swiss or Elephant.

 

[Specster]

Firing blanks creates MUCH more fouling than firing live rounds. I'm no fan of Pyrodex, I don't belive it is really that much cleaner than traditional black powder and prefer Goex, Swiss or Elephant.

The people at Smith and Wesson, who bought up Thompson, had a pretty low opinion of 777. Ive been using Pyrodex.

 

[johan_steele]

The people at Smith and Wesson, who bought up Thompson, had a pretty low opinion of 777. Ive been using Pyrodex.

IMO go Goex, Elephant or Swiss and you will never go back to Pyrodex pellets.

 

[BillO]

This is what I am trying to make sense of. I would imagine modern muzzle load powders are cleaner but still they get difficult to load pretty quickly.

I know that when I saw them fire the brass napoleon cannon in my town they cleaned it twice between rounds...and that was without a projectile. That may have just been for dramatic effect.

The cannon swabbing you saw wasn't due to fouling but to quenching sparks left in the barrel from the previous round being fired. The second ramming action was to push the next load down the barrel.

 

[BillO]

This is what I am trying to make sense of. I would imagine modern muzzle load powders are cleaner but still they get difficult to load pretty quickly.

I know that when I saw them fire the brass napoleon cannon in my town they cleaned it twice between rounds...and that was without a projectile. That may have just been for dramatic effect.

No they actually didn't "clean" it twice between rounds. The first long stick they poked down the barrel was a sponge, wet, to quench sparks or littles bits of burning whatever. The second long stick was a rammer used to push the next powder charge in place.

 

[Jobe Holiday]

Specster - In watching the cannon fired, and the cleaning process between rounds, is it possible you witnessed:

1 - Worming of the bore to remove any remnants of the powder bag/foil wrap.
2 - Wet swabbing of the bore to extinguish any embers.
3 - Dry swabbing of the bore to remove any water from the wet swabbing operation.

In watching the double swabbing operation, it may appear that they were cleaning it twice. If this is what they actually did they were adhering to the strictest of muzzle loading Artillery safety procedures, for which they should be highly commended.

J.

 

[Specster]

The cannon swabbing you saw wasn't due to fouling but to quenching sparks left in the barrel from the previous round being fired. The second ramming action was to push the next load down the barrel.

To tell you the truth, it was midnight on New Years Eve and pitch black....

 

[Specster]

A little more info on the ACW muzzle loader issue. This is according to Joseph Glatthaar's General Lee's Army, Chapter 11. The Enfield loaded .577 and .58 rounds. As early as '62 the Confederates realizes that the rifle would be difficult to load after 6-7 rounds. The Union was using Williams Cleaners, provided to soldiers at 2 per twenty rounds. It has been estimated that a Union soldier could shoot up to 20 rounds after cleaning with the Williams device.

These were curtailed in 1864 , according to the author because of the common use of repeaters in the North. For the South the problem became acute and Lee issued instructions that the Springfield be loaded "naked" no paper, to cut down on clogging.

In December 62 a Confederate circular was issued recommending the use of the Mississippi .54 rounds for both Enfield and Springfields to avert the clogging/loading problem. This "solution" compromised the spin and pressure of the weapon for better ease in loading. Again, this is according to the author cited above.

Early in the war the South used Northern manufactured gun powder. When this was exhausted they had QC problems which were not resolved until 64.

It would seem that muzzle loaders were never easy to load for any period of time without frequent cleaning.

 

[Poor Private]

Alot of flinters and cappers in another forum run a wet/damp patch down the barrel between shots. Of course they are not being fired at in a line of battle and can take the time to insure their barrel is clean to make the most accurate shot while shooting at a target or game.

 

[hrobalabama]

The c

A little more info on the ACW muzzle loader issue. This is according to Joseph Glatthaar's General Lee's Army, Chapter 11. The Enfield loaded .577 and .58 rounds. As early as '62 the Confederates realizes that the rifle would be difficult to load after 6-7 rounds. The Union was using Williams Cleaners, provided to soldiers at 2 per twenty rounds. It has been estimated that a Union soldier could shoot up to 20 rounds after cleaning with the Williams device.

These were curtailed in 1864 , according to the author because of the common use of repeaters in the North. For the South the problem became acute and Lee issued instructions that the Springfield be loaded "naked" no paper, to cut down on clogging.

In December 62 a Confederate circular was issued recommending the use of the Mississippi .54 rounds for both Enfield and Springfields to avert the clogging/loading problem. This "solution" compromised the spin and pressure of the weapon for better ease in loading. Again, this is according to the author cited above.

Early in the war the South used Northern manufactured gun powder. When this was exhausted they had QC problems which were not resolved until 64.

It would seem that muzzle loaders were never easy to load for any period of time without frequent cleaning.

C

The Confederates preferred English Ammunition for their Enfields. Reports are they got better service out of them than the home made rounds.

 

[Specster]

The c
C

The Confederates preferred English Ammunition for their Enfields. Reports are they got better service out of them than the home made rounds.

I understand there were QC issues with lead rounds and gunpowder, for starters, then artillary ammunition, fuzes, and so on. We have seen, on this forum, even with the edged weapons, the iron was poor quality and snapped easily. It is amazing, given the odds in numbers against them, that the Confederates did as well as they did, for as long as they did.

 

[hrobalabama]

I understand there were QC issues with lead rounds and gunpowder, for starters, then artillary ammunition, fuzes, and so on. We have seen, on this forum, even with the edged weapons, the iron was poor quality and snapped easily. It is amazing, given the odds in numbers against them, that the Confederates did as well as they did, for as long as they did.

Yes sir, It is amazing.

 

[Camp Randall Armory]

A little more info on the ACW muzzle loader issue. This is according to Joseph Glatthaar's General Lee's Army, Chapter 11. The Enfield loaded .577 and .58 rounds. As early as '62 the Confederates realizes that the rifle would be difficult to load after 6-7 rounds. The Union was using Williams Cleaners, provided to soldiers at 2 per twenty rounds. It has been estimated that a Union soldier could shoot up to 20 rounds after cleaning with the Williams device.

These were curtailed in 1864 , according to the author because of the common use of repeaters in the North. For the South the problem became acute and Lee issued instructions that the Springfield be loaded "naked" no paper, to cut down on clogging.

In December 62 a Confederate circular was issued recommending the use of the Mississippi .54 rounds for both Enfield and Springfields to avert the clogging/loading problem. This "solution" compromised the spin and pressure of the weapon for better ease in loading. Again, this is according to the author cited above.

Early in the war the South used Northern manufactured gun powder. When this was exhausted they had QC problems which were not resolved until 64.

It would seem that muzzle loaders were never easy to load for any period of time without frequent cleaning.

If this is what your book really says, I suggest you throw that book in the trash since nearly everything in the above quotes is wrong.

 

[Specster]

If this is what your book really says, I suggest you throw that book in the trash since nearly everything in the above quotes is wrong.

Its not "My Book", its

General Lee's Army: From Victory to Collapse by Joseph Glatthaar, who is a respected author of a fairly widely acclaimed book.

 

[hrobalabama]

If this is what your book really says, I suggest you throw that book in the trash since nearly everything in the above quotes is wrong.

Since I don't claim to be an expert in any way, could you tell us what is wrong with the information in the post.
I am always eager to lean something new and this forum is really enlightening with new information every time I read the posts.

 

[Camp Randall Armory]

A little more info on the ACW muzzle loader issue. This is according to Joseph Glatthaar's General Lee's Army, Chapter 11. The Enfield loaded .577 and .58 rounds. As early as '62 the Confederates realizes that the rifle would be difficult to load after 6-7 rounds. The Union was using Williams Cleaners, provided to soldiers at 2 per twenty rounds. It has been estimated that a Union soldier could shoot up to 20 rounds after cleaning with the Williams device.

These were curtailed in 1864 , according to the author because of the common use of repeaters in the North. For the South the problem became acute and Lee issued instructions that the Springfield be loaded "naked" no paper, to cut down on clogging.

In December 62 a Confederate circular was issued recommending the use of the Mississippi .54 rounds for both Enfield and Springfields to avert the clogging/loading problem. This "solution" compromised the spin and pressure of the weapon for better ease in loading. Again, this is according to the author cited above.

Early in the war the South used Northern manufactured gun powder. When this was exhausted they had QC problems which were not resolved until 64.

It would seem that muzzle loaders were never easy to load for any period of time without frequent cleaning.

Williams Cleaner rounds, which were included 1 round in a 10 round pack of .58 minies, fell out of use because there were doubts of its effectiveness of cleaning the barrel. They were essentially standard lead rounds with a zinc washer at the base.With properly sized ammunition, a Soldier could expect to fire 60 rounds between cleanings. As the war progressed the diameter of the bullets got smaller to aid in loading.

No minie cartridges, north or south, American or English manufacture, had paper rammed with the bullet. The minie didn't work that way.

You can't load a .54 ball into a .58 barrel. You can, but the bullet would have extremely load velocity and no accuracy and be pretty useless. Heck even a properly size .58 ball is not effective in the shallow grooves of the .58 Springfield/Enfield.

Both the north and south continuously manufactured black powder throughout the war. The north had the DuPont family, and black powder was one area that the South had great success in making a great deal and of high quality.

 

[thomas aagaard]

No minie cartridges, north or south, American or English manufacture, had paper rammed with the bullet. The minie didn't work that way.

Not correct. The british did load with the paper.
The Platoon Exercise, and Different Firings for the Ordinary or Rifle Musket from 1854:
http://www.militaryheritage.com/enfield1853.htm

"1st. Bring the cartridge to the mouth, holding it between the forefinger and thumb, with the ball in the hand, and bite off the top, elbow close to the body.
2nd. Raise the elbow square with the shoulder, with the palm of the hand inclined to the front, and shake the powder into the barrel.
3rd. Reverse the cartridge (keeping the elbow square) by dropping the hand over the muzzle, the fingers in front of the barrel, and place the bullet into the barrel nearly as far as the top, holding the paper above it, between the forefinger and thumb.
4th. By a turn of the wrist from left to right, tear off the paper that remains between the forefinger and thumb, dropping the elbow into the side at the same time, and seize the head of the ramrod with the second joint of the forefinger and thumb."
You remove the exes paper, but the paper around the bullet is still there.