Modern Muzzle Loaders vs. ACW Era - Loading

[Specster]

I have a newish (3 y/o) Thompson Center Point Omega (.50 Cal). When I shoot the weapon, by the third round I am realy struggling to get the projectile seated. When I contacted Thompson, they said I was not cleaning it between shots, which seemed to me kind of crazy because, my understanding is that a rifled musket, civil war era, could be shot 3 times in a minute. Further, there are accounts of men firing so often that when the cartridge was seater, the barrel was so hot that it would sometimes self ignite. Is my rifle screwed up or is this a nuance of modern muzzle loaders? BTW, Thomson (New Hampshire), has been bought out by Smith and Wesson (Springfield, MA).

The Omega is so hard to load, that even with a glove, I come close to breaking my skin getting the round seated.

 

[Grayrock Volunteer]

I take it you are using a patched round ball. I have had similar problems with a CVA. Try using a smaller ball. For example, I shoot a .495 diameter patched ball out of my .50 caliber. I have an original Enfield I also shoot. The conical base of the Minnie ammunition allows me to use a smaller round and no patch for easier loading. I use a .574 round for a .577 caliber rifle. Original ammunition was also marginally smaller than the bore, but soldiers still experienced fouling problems. Several cleaning bullets were developed to combat it, but none were too effective or popular.

 

[Specster]

I take it you are using a patched round ball. I have had similar problems with a CVA. Try using a smaller ball. For example, I shoot a .495 diameter patched ball out of my .50 caliber. I have an original Enfield I also shoot. The conical base of the Minnie ammunition allows me to use a smaller round and no patch for easier loading. I use a .574 round for a .577 caliber rifle. Original ammunition was also marginally smaller than the bore, but soldiers still experienced fouling problems. Several cleaning bullets were developed to combat it, but none were too effective or popular.

Do you think, with an ACW Muzzle loader, you could keep up 3 rounds a minute, even with the cleaning bullets, and not have to stop frequently for a serious cleaning? That would have been harsh, in the heat of battle. I would think black powder would foul a barrel quicker than modern smokeless, or am I wrong?

 

[Jobe Holiday]

Specster, you really need to visit one of the North-South Skirmish Association rifle matches! There you will see Rifle Muskets, both original and reproductions, being fired in their team matches very comfortably and accurately at the rate of 6-8 rounds a minute! I see on their home page www.N-SSA.org that there is a match being held at Hopkinton, Mass. on May 30-31, 2015. These matches are open to the public to watch at no charge.

 

[johan_steele]

With a patched round ball you don't get as much lube involved in the operation as w/ a minnie. The patch should almost literally be saturated w/ it.

I've gone right at 40 rounds w/out cleaning during a rapid fire event. That said I've also had a near disastorous problem after only three rounds at a standard shoot the problem for the latter was that I cut down on the lube after a comment from a more experianced shooter... I cut too much out.

 

[frankconrad]

If you are target shooting use a spit patch, Put your patch in your mouth and litterly chew on it, it should be soaking wet When you ram the ball down. I have never had to clean If you arebetween Shots if your bore is good and you ball is the right size, Unless you are into extreme accuracy keep on shooting. If you are hunting some kind of lube is needed, if you plan on emptying the rifle at the end of the day plain old solid Crisco will keep the fouling soft also.

 

[Specster]

Specster, you really need to visit one of the North-South Skirmish Association rifle matches! There you will see Rifle Muskets, both original and reproductions, being fired in their team matches very comfortably and accurately at the rate of 6-8 rounds a minute! I see on their home page www.N-SSA.org that there is a match being held at Hopkinton, Mass. on May 30-31, 2015. These matches are open to the public to watch at no charge.

Tx

 

[Specster]

With a patched round ball you don't get as much lube involved in the operation as w/ a minnie. The patch should almost literally be saturated w/ it.

I've gone right at 40 rounds w/out cleaning during a rapid fire event. That said I've also had a near disastorous problem after only three rounds at a standard shoot the problem for the latter was that I cut down on the lube after a comment from a more experianced shooter... I cut too much out.

When you are using a modern muzzle loader with a minnie, what are you using as lube and how are you applying it? Are you using something commercial like bore butter?

 

[johan_steele]

When you are using a modern muzzle loader with a minnie, what are you using as lube and how are you applying it? Are you using something commercial like bore butter?

I use white lithium grease in the hollow at the base and bore butter in the grease grooves.

I should clarify that I only rarely shoot patched round ball, almost all of my shooting is/was done w/ the minnie.

A slick operation I saw in use was a patch board attached to a short "grease tube" the fresh patch was set over the hole, round ball set in patch then w/ a bullet starter the whole thing was forced through the "grease tube" which had a mixture of tallow & bore butter inside. I'm not sure what his mix was but I do know he was getting outstanding results w/ his Navy Arms M1841 in .54 w/ a roundball. Though admitedly he kept complaining that his rounds kept keyholing.

 

[Specster]

I sent by Thompson Center Point Omega back to the new owners, Smith and Wesson. The reason it went back was the firing pin was not hitting the percussion cap. The tech just called me and said that I should be able to fire at least 5 shots w/o cleaning or lubing and he was going to to switch out the plug and do some other things to make it easier to load. The 1st thing he asked was if I used 7-7-7. He said it was their experience that it left a lot of residue.

The good news is that he said they would address everything and re-finish the rifle. Good news! I almost didnt pick up the phone - it being presidents day and running a business...I get enough phone calls.

 

[Specster]

Got my Thompson (now Smith & Wesson), back yesterday. Now I know why this company is still around after 150 plus years. They addressed all the issues, paid for shipping both ways, re finished the rifle and didnt charge a cent.

 

[plymouthairrifle]

I also have a TC Omega and I love it. I use sabots, easy to load and good accuracy.

 

[Specster]

I also have a TC Omega and I love it. I use sabots, easy to load and good accuracy.

Do you lube every round? If yes with what and how?

 

[Tin cup]

I lube my Minnies (and Enfield style ammo) with a combination of pure beeswax, and olive oil...I can't remark on the ratio of one to the other, I just know if I use too much oil in the mix, the lube will melt in the summer heat! I have fired up to 50+ rounds at one time, with no cleaning in between shots. But, I have also fired around 12 shots, and then loading got harder, and I had to swab out the barrel. Dryness/humidity of the day you are shooting will have an effect.

I know that the Battle Of Kennesaw Mountain, yanks were seen urinating in their barrels, to clean em out...a water saving measure...something you can bet you won't see me doing at the range!

Kevin Dally

 

[Specster]

I lube my Minnies (and Enfield style ammo) with a combination of pure beeswax, and olive oil...I can't remark on the ratio of one to the other, I just know if I use too much oil in the mix, the lube will melt in the summer heat! I have fired up to 50+ rounds at one time, with no cleaning in between shots. But, I have also fired around 12 shots, and then loading got harder, and I had to swab out the barrel. Dryness/humidity of the day you are shooting will have an effect.

I know that the Battle Of Kennesaw Mountain, yanks were seen urinating in their barrels, to clean em out...a water saving measure...something you can bet you won't see me doing at the range!

Kevin Dally

do you roll them in the lube mix or brush it on each sabot?

 

[Tin cup]

do you roll them in the lube mix or brush it on each sabot?

No sabot...powder down the barrel, Minnie (the three rings holding lube pressed in during the sizing process) rammed down, cap and fire. If I load Enfield rounds, the paper surrounding the bullet holds the lubricant.

The way I lube the minnies is I heat up a pan of lube, dip the bottom of the Minnie till it fills in all 3 exterior grooves, then when I size them thru the sizing die, any excess lube around the bullet is scraped off, leaving the 3 rings filled only.

Kevin Dally

 

[Pvt.Shattuck]

OK shooters I've been trying to follow this conversation. Did soldiers actually fire 3 rounds a minute or not? More? Did they have to constantly stop and clean those Enfields and Springfields?

 

[bankerpapaw]

I love my CVA muzzleloader, but I hate having to clean it with all the soap and water, etc. What was the cleaning method of Civil War muzzleloaders?

 

[johan_steele]

OK shooters I've been trying to follow this conversation. Did soldiers actually fire 3 rounds a minute or not? More? Did they have to constantly stop and clean those Enfields and Springfields?

The reality is that they were capable of doing so but how often would be another matter completely. A soldier typically only carried 40 rounds in his cartridge box. I can and have fired 40 rounds down range in an afternoon w/out cleaning the barrel but those last 5-10 rounds were getting pretty tight and loading was slowed considerably. That said I've also fired only a few rounds and had the weapon so fouled it was impossible to quickly load her.

IMO it depended upon the situation and perhaps which arsenal the ammo came from. There are the regulations and then there is reality.

 

[Pvt.Shattuck]

There must have been many battles that went on for hours where troops were resupplied with ammo. How did they clean musket barrels in the field and on the run? Maybe just water from the canteen and a couple of quick swipes?