Maker for NCO sword? Need help with ID

[mdmosin]

Does anybody know who made this NCO sword? I have tried to research it but can't make out the script.

 

[JOHN42768]

That appears to be more of an inscription. The only thing that I can make out (maybe) is at the right looks like Coulson, NC. I don't know if there ever was such a place. Post some photos of the flat area where the blade meets the handle , both sides. Someone may know

 

[bayonet]

That appears to be more of an inscription. The only thing that I can make out (maybe) is at the right looks like Coulson, NC. I don't know if there ever was such a place. Post some photos of the flat area where the blade meets the handle , both sides. Someone may know

The French were know to decorated the top of the blades like that but I can't make any of whats there out. Your right he needs to show both sides of the blade where it meets the handle for any markings

 

[bobinwmass]

I'd like to see more of the hilt to make sure it is really a US NCO sword as opposed to a French or other European sword. The inside of the guard doesn't look like a typical NCO guard with the raised center coming down from the quillion. Here's a picture of one of my NCO swords from a similar angle.

 

[UCVRelics]

I'm leaning French made.

 

[mdmosin]

Hilt

 

[mdmosin]

Overall view

 

[bobinwmass]

HiltView attachment 431704

Looks like French Klingenthal inspector/receiver stamps on the ricasso.

 

[UCVRelics]

With the makers marks on the blade near the hilt, now I leaning Spanish as those are Toledo marks.

 

[bobinwmass]

This site shows the same markings (S within shield, crown over B), called poincons, identified to Klingenthal.
www.americanswords.com/klingenthal.html
Now knowing that, I think the first few words on the spine of the blade would translate to "Manufactured by Klingenthal..."

 

[UCVRelics]

This site shows the same markings (S within shield, crown over B), called poincons, identified to Klingenthal.
www.americanswords.com/klingenthal.html

Then should it not have a Klingenthal marked spine? Toledo has a S in shield and my eyes are getting bad but I see a B.

 

[bobinwmass]

Then should it not have a Klingenthal marked spine? Toledo has a S in shield and my eyes are getting bad but I see a B.

I did add to my post that it looks like the spine is marked Klingenthal now that we know to look for the name.

 

[bobinwmass]

It's interesting that Thillmann does not show Klingenthal as a maker of US NCO swords. In fact, in his book on Army Swords he says "Neither French nor British made NCO or Musician's swords are known of or were discovered in the background research for this book." I don't know enough about European swords to know if other countries used a similar sword, and if this was made for a foreign country, or if it is indeed a scarce import for the Civil War. Except for the decorated quillion, it looks very much like an NCO sword. Hopefully someone with more knowledge of European swords will chime in. In the meantime, what is the blade length? Does the top scabbard mount have a frog hook?

 

[UCVRelics]

Neither French nor British made NCO or Musician's swords

So would you say its NOT US CW?

 

[bobinwmass]

So would you say its NOT US CW?

I'm saying I really don't know. This is an interesting mystery to me that I'm looking forward to seeing what others think or know. As you know, some US swords are copied directly from European swords, one example being the Model 1850 Foot Officer sword from the French Model 1845 Infantry sword (I think it was). For the sake of those who do not know, Klingenthal made both of those, which can be so identical that if a particular Klingenthal sword in question does not have US etching or presentation, etc, it must be assumed to be a French military sword. I don't know if France or any other country used a sword so similar to our NCO sword that this could be a similar case. Again referring to Thillmann, he says our Model 1840 NCO sword was not copied directly from any one european sword, but has traits similar to some French, British, and a Prussian sword. I do not know enough about European swords to know what swords he is referring to. But if none of those swords are this sword in question, and if this particular style sword was not used in Europe, then I would think it very well could be an import NCO sword unknown to and undocumented by Thillmann. One thing going for that is those 2 poincoins stamped on the ricasso are found on Klingenthal swords and blades imported for the Civil War. Knowing the blade length and frog attachment style to see if they are the same as used on the NCO sword may give points one way or the other.

 

[Glen_C]

We are hampered here in playing twenty questions. Please post an overall picture of the sword outside of the scabbard. Both sides. The manner in which it is marked indicates second half of the 19th century and this is a French model 1884 nco sword. The hilt goes back to 1816 and where we get the hilt for our 1840. The quillion is not regulation to their 1884 but where the counterguard is completely void of any icon, it is just an infantry 1884 nco. The blade could easily be older than the hilt. K C&C had not been contracted to the military for several decades. So, don't be too hasty to just list it as carried by an aide d camp to Lee Yes, these might have been exported but likely not for US work.

Cheers
GC

 

[mdmosin]

Blade 30 inches from hilt 29 1/4 from flat part

 

[mdmosin]

More pics

 

[bobinwmass]

Blade 30 inches from hilt 29 1/4 from flat part

Both my Ames and Roby NCO swords have 32 inch blades.

 

[bayonet]

Folks need to post pics of both sides of the blade near the hilt (close up pics) to show markings. I need glasses since I still can't make out the 1 pic he posted that showed some markings.