M1859 USMC sword???

Solomon

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Aug 20, 2017
Location
Knoxville, TN
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I picked this sword up at auction recently, under the impression it was an 1850 Foot Officer's sword (I've never owned one), which is what the listing stated. I knew they weren't typically made by Horstmann with leather grips, but thought it might have been some kind of anomaly, rewrap, etc. Upon researching further (both on CWT, and online), I am wondering if I have an un-etched, pre-1875 USMC sword. Hard to read, but it is a Horstmann. The blade is quite nicked (and looks to have been sharpened long ago), the handle is loose, no scabbard, and the thing is nearly blackened throughout (I actually rather like the patina), but grabbed it cheaply, and quite happy with the purchase either way. Would love to have some input! (@Richard E. Schenk , @drm2m , etc).

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It looks like a typical 1850 Foot Officer's sword. It hard to read but if its marked Horstmann & Sons it CW period. The Horstmann marking changed quite a bit over the life of the company. Below are the markings with the dates used. Horstmann imported all of there blade and assembled swords. The had several US contracts but I don't see a USMC one in the list. Nice piece.

W.H. Horstmann & Sons, NY and Philadelphia
Although Horstmann was more of a resaler than a maker, Most, if not all, blades were imported from Germany, and some still carry marks from their German makers. Horstmann held government contracts for 1043 cavalry sabers, 1143 NCO swords, 270 musician swords, and 87 light artillery sabers, and is the only known maker of the M1840 Marine sword.
Pictures:

W. H. HORSTMANN / PHILA. 1820-1850
W. H. HORSTMANN / NEW YORK 1820-1837
W. H. HORSTMANN & SONS 1843-1863
W. H. HORSTMANN & CO. / PHILA. 1864-1866
W. H. HORSTMANN & CO. / NEW YORK 1837-1847
HORSTMANN BROS & CO. / PHILA 1859-1863
HORSTMANN BROS & CO. / NEW YORK 1850-1852
HORSTMANN BROS & ALLIEN 1852-1877
HORSTMANN BROS & DRUCKER 1844-1850
HORSTMANN / PHILADELPHIA 1893-1935
 
Appreciate the replies guys, and all of the info @ucvrelics. I didn't have the Horstmann contract numbers, or the maker's marks/dates in the files I continue to build, so those are great pieces of info to have!

It's marked Horstmann and Son's, so nice to place it within those 20yrs. I was under the impression that all of Horstmann 1850 officer's swords were wrapped with ray skin, and that the distinguishing difference between them and the USMC swords, was that the latter was wrapped with leather grips.

Are you referring to the sword in question as a Marine NCO sword then, @Borderruffian, and is this one of them?

Love digging into this kind of obscure stuff, and hope more responses generated!
 
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Also - the blade is heavily nicked for about the last 2' - assumed to be Blackbeard play by a grandkid? And the course sharpening as well?
 
Does anyone know how the choice of straight blade sword or curved saber was made. I would have thought the lighter straight blade would have been preferred for foot troops but that isn't the case.
 
No, This is the 1840 USMC sword.
View attachment 257998
When the Marines assaulted the Engine House at Harper's Ferry, Lieutenant Israel Green and John Brown engaged in combat; Green struck Brown in the area of Brown's belt buckle and Green's regulation Model 1840 Sword bent almost double on the impact. Green then had to subdue Brown by hitting him over the head several times with the hilt. These swords were more for "show" than "go". The heavier but sturdier Model 1850 was adopted a short time later.
 
@Richard E. Schenk would have the best information I am aware of, as the subject has been a passion and study of his. I had been under the impression that only commissioned USMC officers wore the 1850 type swords during the ACW period and up to the point the mameluke was re instituted but Richard cleared the air a bit for me some years ago. Apparently the use by USMC NCOs went hand in hand, with the most determining factor being scabbards with rings vs frog buttons. The nco worn in a baldric and the ranked officers slung on rings.

Anyway, he is bound to check in at some point

Some threads

http://www.swordforum.com/vb4/showthread.php?118708-M1850-Army-or-M1859-USMC
http://www.swordforum.com/vb4/showthread.php?118730-Help-Need-to-Research-USMC-M1859-Sergeants-Sword
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/286481-usmc-m1859-sergeants-sword/
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/for...civil-war-officers-sword-regulations-of-1859/
 
Many thanks, @Glen_C! I'd run across one of those threads, while searching for info a couple of weeks ago, but couldn't relocate it when making this post. The 1859 sergeant's sword is exactly what I had in mind, and what I am wondering whether I found.

I think there is some confusion with semantics, when discussing marine's "sergeant's swords" and "NCO swords", as the 1850-type and the 1840-type are clearly different animals, while NCO clearly encompasses the rank of sergeant, thus making a "sergeant's sword" an NCO's sword, in a manner of speaking.

Would love to have @Richard E. Schenk chime in when time allows - thanks again!! Will look through those threads as I can.
 
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Many thanks, @Glen_C! I'd run across one of those threads, while searching for info a couple of weeks ago, but couldn't locate it again when I made this post. The 1859 sergeant's sword is exactly what I was thinking of, and what I am wondering about.

I think there is some confusion with semantics, when discussing marine's "sergeant's swords" and "NCO swords", as the 1850-type and the 1840-type are clearly different animals, while NCO clearly encompasses the rank of sergeant, thus making a "sergeant's sword" an NCO's sword, in a manner of speaking.

Would love to have @Richard E. Schenk chime in when time allows - thanks again!! Will look through those threads as I can.
Less the etching, the modern NCO Sword is identical in appearance to the Civil War era NCO sword.
 
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There is a lot of mis-information in this thread. Marine swords have always been one of the least, if not THE least, understood series of US military swords. I have done considerable research, primarily in the National Archives, to try to clarify the history of these swords. Man-at-Arms recently published the results of my research on the Marine M1859 NCO sword and its variants in its Oct 2018 edition, and I will probably do another article on Marine musicians swords in the near future.

As for the sword at the top of this thread. it is quite possibly an early CW Marine M1859 NCO sword.

The Uniform reg of 1859 was not very specific on the design of the NCO sword. It merely stated it should be "same as US Infantry". The Commandant later issued some clarification to the Quartermaster as to what was meant, i.e. "It is intended to be of the same pattern as that adopted for officers, except the hilt is brass instead of gilt." Actually, there were a number of differences between the NCO and officers' versions. Sergeants' swords had plain brass hilts and scabbard mounts, whereas officers' hilts and scabbard mounts were gilt. The grips on sergeants' swords were wrapped with leather, whereas officers' grips were usually covered with sharkskin. Officers' swords had etched blades, while early Marine sergeants' blades were polished bright with no etching. Finally, and the most visibly obvious difference, the scabbards of sergeants' swords had only two mounts, a top mount with a frog stud and a scabbard drag, whereas officers' scabbards bore three mounts, i.e. a throat and middle mount fitted with carrying rings, and a drag. The sword at the top of this thread has leather wrap, the blade appears unetched, and there is no sign of gilt on the hilt. The markings are also the same as those found on the Horstmann-made NCO swords delivered in 1859. With no scabbard, however, it is hard to say with absolute certitude that this isn't a bargain-basement version M1850 foot officer sword made with cheaper leather grip covering, no etching, and thin gilt which has worn off.


A couple posts question whether Horstmann had contracts to produce Marine swords. In fact, almost all Marine enlisted swords produced in the second half of the 19th century were made by Horstmann. They had the initial contract to produce M1859 swords. In 1860 they lost the contract to Ames but regained it in 1861. In 1862 Bent and Bush won the contract and retained it for the rest of the CW years. B&B, however, was not sword maker, and it is believed it sub-contracted the sword portion of their larger contract to provide military goods to the Corps to Horstmann. There are no known examples of Marine swords with the B&B mark. On the other hand, with the exception of one probable Ames example, all known CW-era Marine swords are marked to Horstmann. In the post-CW era, Horstmann regained the contract to provided enlisted swords to the Marine Corps in 1869 and, with the exception of two years, retained it for the rest of the century.


One of the above post shows a picture of the Horstmann M1840 NCO sword with the turned-down rear counterguard and states it was the CW Marine NCO sword.. This is a common mistake which has been around for years and even appears in some respected reference works, e.g. Col Rankins "Arms of the Sea Services". This is probably due mainly to the ambiguity of the Uniform Reg of 1859 language noted above. In fact it is simply the Horstmann version of the M1840 NCO swords which they marketed to Army and militia elements. Just as steel scabbards were unique to Emerson & Silver-made M1840s, so was the turned-down rear counterguard unique to Horstmann. There was, however, a Marine connection. Like modern collectors, Horstmann and the Marine Assistant Quartermaster in Philadelphia were confused by the wording in the Uniform Regulation of 1859 and thought it meant Marine Sergeants would carry the Army M1840 NCO sword, and so initially sent one of Horstmann's M1840s to USMC HQ in Washington as a sample. This is when the Commandant sent his clarification. HQ must have liked the M1840 sample, however because a few days later they informed Asst QM Philadelphia ""The sword first sent by you has been adopted for the musicians of the Corps, and the one the same pattern of the officer's sword, with brass hilt to be worn with a frog, has been adopted for the sergeants." Thus some Horstman M1840 NCO swords were used by the Marines, but by musicians, not Sergeants. The majority of such swords, however, were used by Army/militia forces, not Marines. There is no way of differentiating which is which.

Sorry for the long-winded reply; just wanted to use the opportunity to correct some widespread misunderstanding about these swords.
 
NCO swords were based on 1850 officer of foot sword,however etching of the blades was not authorized until 1875 by CMC Zelien.

The issue of when etching was added to Marine enlisted sword blades is still in question. The conventional wisdom among collectors has long been that the new uniform regulations adopted in 1875 directed that the etching on the blades of the M1859 sergeants' swords
include the initials "U.S.M.C." In fact, the 1875 regulation is even more obscure on the design of enlisted men's swords than the 1859 regulation. It stated, "For patterns of belts, complete, and swords, see patterns in the Quartermaster's Office, Headquarters." There is some antidotal and stylistic evidence that suggests an earlier date, but nothing too definitive.

It would also seem that before the well-known "U.S.M.C." etch was adopted, Horstmann was already producing M1859 sergeants' swords with generic etching with no mention of the Marines. Again, conventional wisdom usually sets the date for adoption of the generic etched blades as 1872, but I have been unable to find any documentary or other evidence to support this date.

It is likely more detailed guidance than that found in the regs was provided in some other document, but despite a thorough search of USMC Quartermaster records held in the National Archives, no such document was found. If anyone is aware of such a document or other evidence, I would really appreciate the details.
 
Great reply, and no apologies needed for the long-winded nature of it!! All great information, and thank you for taking the time to share! That is outstanding they published your findings, by the way, as I know it takes countless hours on your behalf to gather and formulate all of that info.

A quick follow-up question/clarification: I was under the impression (perhaps falsely) that Horstmann did not produce any leather-wrapped M1850's during this era (1843-1863, as noted by @ucvrelics). Was there indeed a lesser/cheaper version available from them?

One more thought, per discussions contained in threads linked above by @Glen_C, regarding numbers of M1859's produced from the end of the war to 1872: Have you seen any/many Horstmann's marked as noted by @ucvrelics above (i.e. something besides "Horstmann and Sons"), thus giving a relative idea of production, compared with the 465-odd swords produced during the war?

Many thanks again - this is exactly the stuff I was looking for when making this post!
 
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I think there is some confusion with semantics, when discussing marine's "sergeant's swords" and "NCO swords", as the 1850-type and the 1840-type are clearly different animals, while NCO clearly encompasses the rank of sergeant, thus making a "sergeant's sword" an NCO's sword, in a manner of speaking.

Sorry for adding to the confusion. In modern usage and for most of the 20th century the M1859 has generally been referred to as the Marine M1859 NCO sword. In the 19th century, however, it was called the sergeant's sword. Marine corporals, who are also NCOs, did not carry swords. I know I tend to intermix the two terms, but at least for the earlier examples, I should stick to "Marine sergeants swords"
 
When the Marines assaulted the Engine House at Harper's Ferry, Lieutenant Israel Green and John Brown engaged in combat; Green struck Brown in the area of Brown's belt buckle and Green's regulation Model 1840 Sword bent almost double on the impact. Green then had to subdue Brown by hitting him over the head several times with the hilt. These swords were more for "show" than "go". The heavier but sturdier Model 1850 was adopted a short time later.

I believe Lt Green was carrying a M1826 mameluke vice an Army M1840 NCO sword. This incident was, at least antidotally, one of the reasons the Army M1850 foot officer's sword was adopted to replace the mameluke in 1859.
 
A quick follow-up question/clarification: I was under the impression (perhaps falsely) that Horstmann did not produce any leather-wrapped M1850's during this era (1843-1863, as noted by @ucvrelics). Was there indeed a lesser/cheaper version available from them?

One more thought, per discussions contained in threads linked above by @Glen_C, regarding numbers of M1859's produced from the end of the war to 1872: Have you seen any/many Horstmann's marked as noted by @ucvrelics above (i.e. something besides "Horstmann and Sons"), thus giving a relative idea of production, compared with the 465-odd swords produced during the war?

Ref your first question, I am reluctant to say too much about Army M1850 foot officer swords - they are not really my area of expertise. I have, however, seen examples with leather covered grips and, although not often, with unetched blades. I believe I have seen Horstmann examples with leather-covered grips but, quite honestly, I cannot say I have for certain.

Ref your second question, I have only seen two variations of the makers name on M1859 Sergeants' swords with unetched blades. The first is like your sword, with the name "HORSTMANN/& SONS" stamped on the reverse ricasso, and "PHILADELPHIA" stamped on the obverse. The second has the name "HORSTMANN/& SONS/PHILADELPHIA" stamped on the obverse ricasso and the king's head mark of the Solingen blade maker Weyersberg stamped on the reverse. (Horstmann acquired a large percentage of the blades used for Marine swords from Weyersberg.) I believe the second is later, although they may have both been used concurrently.

I have seen five variations of the Horstmann name/address used on etch-bladed swords. They come in a variety of styles, fonts and frames, but every one of them is etched on the obverse base of the blade with some form of the words "W. H. Horstmann & Sons Philadelphia." I don't know who first came up with the UCV's list of names and dates used by Horstmann. I have seen it in a number of places, but you need to take it with a grain of salt. For one thing it is incomplete. Horstmann used a bewildering number of different formulations and logos over the years, and they are not all included in the list. The dates of use are also in many cases not quite right, especially in the case of the formulation "W. H. Horstmann & Sons, Philadelphia". They didn't stop using it in 1863; they were still using it to mark some swords at least to the turn of the century even though the company went through official changes of name during its period of use.
 
Gotcha - thanks for the honest and thorough answers, Richard. I always love running into folks like yourself who have taken an interest in aspects of our history that have been overlooked or forgotten, but which are worthy of research and dedication, and which inevitably solve puzzles for those of a similar pursuit. This website is a trove of information, which is part of the reason I like making posts like these in the first place (I wish I had the time and collector's capital to do more of them) - to stoke interest and preserve the wealth of information gathered by those so inclined.

I appreciate the replies on this particular sword, and the broader clarifications of early marine swords in general. Hopefully they will serve others who come to CWT in search of information regarding their own inquiries, and help preserve this niche of American history. I have certainly found it interesting! (and I'm going to humor myself fancying this to be one of the war-contract Marine M1859 NCO swords mentioned ;)
 
...With no scabbard, however, it is hard to say with absolute certitude that this isn't a bargain-basement version M1850 foot officer sword made with cheaper leather grip covering, no etching, and thin gilt which has worn off...
I would like to add that by U. S. regulations Army Foot Officers' and Staff and Field Officers' swords were supposed to have ray or fish skin covered grips as stated. I've seen several foot and even once owned a staff-and-field sword with plain leather grips, no doubt as Richard says the bargain-basement versions! Of course Confederate copies were all over the place and seem normally to have had leather-covered grips.
 
HORSTMANN
& SONS
PHILADELPHIA

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M1850%20Foot%20Officers%20Sword_zpsiknbwxde.jpg


DSC04312_zpshvappnmf.jpg


Model%201850%20Foot%20Officers%20Sword_zpsrjmv0xym.jpg


I consider this to be a Model 1850 Foot Officers Sword.

Helpful comments from John Thillmann back in February 2006 just after I bought this sword.
I had sent him a bunch of photos.

Note 1) the blade is stamped, it has two stamps--Philadelphia is a separate stamp and not etched, 2) no Gebruder Weyersberg blade maker stamp 3) the grip is leather 4) the etching style.

1) I have seen Horstmann swords with the separate Philadelphia stamp (usually found on the opposite side from the Horstmann stamp) on earlier swords 2) usually the lack of a Gebruder Weyersberg stamp (kings head) doesn't mean much but would be expected to be seen on 1860s examples 3) the leather grip is a feature found on lesser quality Horstmann swords and may indicate it was carried by a militia officer who was not required to follow the US regulation for sharkskin, but it is seen on other makers of the CW period such as Sauerbier.

I didn't see a US on the blade etching but Horstmann often didn't have a US within the blade etching.

All in all I'd be comfortable placing the sword within the prewar through the Civil War period.
 
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