Lorenz m.1854 with modified nosecap

[tankredi]

Tomorrow I will pick up this Lorenz rifle that I bought on the net a couple of weeks ago.
Make by Wanzel.
Stock has no cheek piece so this would make this rifle an export model.
Seller claims it was used in the Civil War.

The rammer comes from an US 1855 musket.
The nose cap looks similar to an p.53 nosecap.

I read in a book that sometimes the Austrian rammer was replaced with a Springfield rammer.

But what about the nose cap?
Was that a common modification for ACW Lorenz muskets?

 

[johan_steele]

I have seen similar. My favorite is a Lorenz with a Harpers Ferry lock and an M1841 ramrod. The front band was modified from an M1841. Supposedly picked up as a souvenir after Atlanta.

 

[Don Dixon]

Stock has no cheek piece so this would make this rifle an export model.

The missing cheek piece does identify it as an export variant of the Muster 1854, Type II, System Lorenz rifle musket.

Seller claims it was used in the Civil War.

And you believe this? It wasn't used in this form, with the replacement ramrod, damaged forend, and replacement nose cap.

The rammer comes from an US 1855 musket.
I read in a book that sometimes the Austrian rammer was replaced with a Springfield rammer.

The only reason to replace the Austrian ramrod would be because the original ramrod was lost or damaged beyond use. Springfield and System Lorenz ramrods are not a one for one exchange. The Springfield barrel, and consequently the Springfield ramrod, are longer than the Muster 1854 barrel and ramrod. To use a Springfield ramrod effectively with a Muster 1854 you would have to cut the threaded end off of the ramrod to shorten it to 33" and then rethread it to use Springfield cleaning tools. Its unlikely that anyone on this side of the pond would have rethreaded it - or had the tooling to rethread it - using Austrian Schritt based measurements so that it could take Austrian cleaning tools.

So, replacing the ramrod is an expedient measure, not a routine one. I would be curious to know what book you read this in, but will observe that most of what has been written in English regarding Austrian arms is pure cr*p.

But what about the nose cap?
Was that a common modification for ACW Lorenz muskets?

No. The nose cap has been replaced because someone elected to shorten the stock or because the forend was damaged, and they used the bronze nose cap as a replacement. You can see the hole for the band spring for the Austrian first barrel band/nose piece just behind the brass nose cap.

I hope you didn't pay too much for this thing because it is essentially valuable only for the salvageable parts, although the parts do appear to be in very good shape. But, because its all buggered up that means that it just has to be Confederate battlefield salvage, doesn't it.

Regards,
Don Dixon

 

[tankredi]

The missing cheek piece does identify it as an export variant of the Muster 1854, Type II, System Lorenz rifle musket.



And you believe this? It wasn't used in this form, with the replacement ramrod, damaged forend, and replacement nose cap.



The only reason to replace the Austrian ramrod would be because the original ramrod was lost or damaged beyond use. Springfield and System Lorenz ramrods are not a one for one exchange. The Springfield barrel, and consequently the Springfield ramrod, are longer than the Muster 1854 barrel and ramrod. To use a Springfield ramrod effectively with a Muster 1854 you would have to cut the threaded end off of the ramrod to shorten it to 33" and then rethread it to use Springfield cleaning tools. Its unlikely that anyone on this side of the pond would have rethreaded it - or had the tooling to rethread it - using Austrian Schritt based measurements so that it could take Austrian cleaning tools.

So, replacing the ramrod is an expedient measure, not a routine one. I would be curious to know what book you read this in, but will observe that most of what has been written in English regarding Austrian arms is pure cr*p.



No. The nose cap has been replaced because someone elected to shorten the stock or because the forend was damaged, and they used the bronze nose cap as a replacement. You can see the hole for the band spring for the Austrian first barrel band/nose piece just behind the brass nose cap.

I hope you didn't pay too much for this thing because it is essentially valuable only for the salvageable parts, although the parts do appear to be in very good shape. But, because its all buggered up that means that it just has to be Confederate battlefield salvage, doesn't it.

Regards,
Don Dixon

Well, I bought the musket in France.
No I didn't believe the sellers story that it was used in the Civil war.

Checked my records, I didn't read in a book about the replaced rammers. I read this in an article written by a gentleman named John Tobey. Should be available as pdf on the net.

Altogether I paid 600ish Euros.
Not too expensive in my opinion taking in account how rare these rifles are over here.

I am planing to replace the rammer with a genuine Austrian one, bring the stock back to original length and add the Austrian nose cap.

 

[bayonet]

With all the things wrong with it and the repairs needed to bring it back to its somewhat original condition.....um.....sorry.....but it ain't worth it and yes you spent too much. Such are the whoas and lessons of collecting! Really got it in France from a Frenchman! That's the first problem. Antique weapons I get from overseas I get from England, Italy, or Germany, not France. Glad you didn't believe his silly lying story of in being a ACW weapon. Not many ACW weapons went back to Europe. Now on the other hand many A Rev War weapons made it back to Europe.

 

[Don Dixon]

Not many ACW weapons went back to Europe.

Actually hundreds of thousands of them went to Europe.

In early 1867 the Serbian government purchased 20,000 surplus Muster 1854 and 1862 rifles in 13.9 mm caliber and 5,000 in .58 [14.7 mm] caliber from American arms dealers, including some Jägerstutzen.

Given the Ottoman Empire's continuing conflicts with its Slavic neighbors, the Ottomans began in 1869-70 to prepare for the inevitable next war with Russia. The Ottomans purchased 114,000 Enfield and 223,240 Springfield surplus rifle muskets from the United States for transformation to breechloader using a variation of the Snyder conversion system.

The Chief of Ordnance, U.S. Army, reported to Congress on 25 October 1870 that to date the Ordnance Office had sold more than 1,340,000 stands of small arms which were "of obsolete patterns and otherwise unfit for issue to troops." Three hundred fifty thousand of them had been sold that month and since 1 July 1870 the Army had sold $5,600,000 worth of surplus arms, illustrating the impact of the Franco-Prussian War on the Army's disposal of its surplus Civil War period arms. If you have French, Pierre Lorain's book Le Armes Americaines de la Defense Nationale, 1870-1871, contains an interesting discussion of the massive sales of surplus weapons to the French during the Franco-Prussian War.

Then there were the sales to the Belgian gun trade of weapons for transformation for sale in the African "gas pipe" trade.

Regards,
Don Dixon

 

[bayonet]

Actually hundreds of thousands of them went to Europe.

In early 1867 the Serbian government purchased 20,000 surplus Muster 1854 and 1862 rifles in 13.9 mm caliber and 5,000 in .58 [14.7 mm] caliber from American arms dealers, including some Jägerstutzen.

Given the Ottoman Empire's continuing conflicts with its Slavic neighbors, the Ottomans began in 1869-70 to prepare for the inevitable next war with Russia. The Ottomans purchased 114,000 Enfield and 223,240 Springfield surplus rifle muskets from the United States for transformation to breechloader using a variation of the Snyder conversion system.

The Chief of Ordnance, U.S. Army, reported to Congress on 25 October 1870 that to date the Ordnance Office had sold more than 1,340,000 stands of small arms which were "of obsolete patterns and otherwise unfit for issue to troops." Three hundred fifty thousand of them had been sold that month and since 1 July 1870 the Army had sold $5,600,000 worth of surplus arms, illustrating the impact of the Franco-Prussian War on the Army's disposal of its surplus Civil War period arms. If you have French, Pierre Lorain's book Le Armes Americaines de la Defense Nationale, 1870-1871, contains an interesting discussion of the massive sales of surplus weapons to the French during the Franco-Prussian War.

Then there were the sales to the Belgian gun trade of weapons for transformation for sale in the African "gas pipe" trade.

Regards,
Don Dixon

Interesting and no doubt they took a beating when you see Ottoman weapons for sale there in rough shape. Maybe why not many of those arms you talk about are out there anymore. The European Auction Houses I deal with might have 1 or 2 ACW in the auction. Or there just sitting in the and attics throughout Turkey.

 

[tankredi]

...

Then there were the sales to the Belgian gun trade of weapons for transformation for sale in the African "gas pipe" trade.

Regards,
Don Dixon

Exactly!

Fortunately my Lorenz escaped the "Belgian smoothboring for Africa"