Looking at a Burnside Carbine

[Specster]

Came across a Burnside Carbine in very nice shape. I believe it is an 1862. How desirable are these?? Everything looks right but I just want some of my CWT brothers to chime in ….

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One more

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

This was made in 1864. It was one of the last ones made. The highest known serial number for a "Model of 1864" stamped Burnside was 19248 (the lowest is 1 because when they began production of these Model of 1864 guns they re-started the serial numbering at 1). The last ones were delivered to the US Government on June 30, 1864, so yours was likely produced in late May - early June, 1864. These are called the 5th Model. There was a large batch (27,000 guns) of 5th Model guns made prior to the "Model of 1864" and these were instead stamped with "Burnside Patent" above the patent date "March 25th 1856" (the lowest known serial number was 11534 and the highest 38749). The 5th Model was by far the most produced of the different versions, and the best version mechanically/functionally.

Please provide pictures of the other side. From the big hole in the forward pivot point of the breech, it may be missing the lever pin.

The cartouche (initials stamped on left side of the buttstock) is important, because it means it was passed miltary inspection and wqas accepted by the government. Approximately 2,800 of the 5th Model Burnsides (like the one in the pic) were rejected by the military...these would not have the cartouche.

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

You asked if they are desireable...they are indeed, especially by me. I am in the process of closing a deal on one. It will likely get shipped to me tomorrow. Can't wait! They are such a cool, cool gun.

Two weeks ago I knew nothing about the Burnside carbines. But I bought the book "Burnside Breechloading carbines and Rifles" by Edward Hull, and I now know a heck of a lot more about them. The book is more about the history of its development, the different models, the government contracts, and the confusing serial number sequencing...its not a technical book on field stripping, ammunition loads, etc., unfortunately. If anyone knows of a technical book, please let me know.

 

[UCVRelics]

All I can add is the price is way to high for this model Burnside

 

[Specster]

This was made in 1864. It was one of the last ones made. The highest known serial number for a "Model of 1864" stamped Burnside was 19248 (the lowest is 1 because when they began production of these Model of 1864 guns they re-started the serial numbering at 1). The last ones were delivered to the US Government on June 30, 1864, so yours was likely produced in late May - early June, 1864. These are called the 5th Model. There was a large batch (27,000 guns) of 5th Model guns made prior to the "Model of 1864" and these were instead stamped with "Burnside Patent" above the patent date "March 25th 1856" (the lowest known serial number was 11534 and the highest 38749). The 5th Model was by far the most produced of the different versions, and the best version mechanically/functionally.

Please provide pictures of the other side. From the big hole in the forward pivot point of the breech, it may be missing the lever pin.

The cartouche (initials stamped on left side of the buttstock) is important, because it means it was passed miltary inspection and wqas accepted by the government. Approximately 2,800 of the 5th Model Burnsides (like the one in the pic) were rejected by the military...these would not have the cartouche.

Thank you for the input. Greatly appreciated.

All I can add is the price is way to high for this model Burnside

Im not doubting your opinion on the price....Im just wondering why you think the price is way off. ive seen Springfields of that vintage in worse shape for about the same money and there were many more produced.
I dug up a book I got at a gun show "2006 Standard Catalog of Firearms" by Ned Schwing.
Is a catalog like this accurate?

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

You are indeed missing the breech pin lever or whatever the heck its called. I'll post a pic and proper part name tomorrow morning for you.

 

[Lanyard Puller]

Sorry, but a 16 year old price guide would be only good for descriptions, and comparing to Springfield prices.........it seems like you're talking yourself in to this purchase.

It would be in Flayderman FINE condition IF the original swivel pin was installed.

Hope you can borrow a pin from a Burnside owner and have a very good gunsmith available who make a copy if it including the case hardening.

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

This is the lever pin that is missing. The entire breech pivots on this so its a rather important part.

 

[JimW]

Looks like this piece?

Reproduction Lever Pin

 

[Specster]

Sorry, but a 16 year old price guide would be only good for descriptions, and comparing to Springfield prices.........it seems like you're talking yourself in to this purchase.

It would be in Flayderman FINE condition IF the original swivel pin was installed.

Hope you can borrow a pin from a Burnside owner and have a very good gunsmith available who make a copy if it including the case hardening.

I was using the book reference as an analogy.

 

[Specster]

All I can add is the price is way to high for this model Burnside

Yes, did a real quick internet search and see most 5th models going around $1200. This one is in nice shape but not that nice. thanks for the heads up

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

Yes, did a real quick internet search and see most 5th models going around $1200. This one is in nice shape but not that nice. thanks for the heads up

$1200....really? The only ones available at that price are junk/have lots of issues. I think the one you posted pictures of would be worth $2,000 or more if the lever pin wasn't missing and the bore was very good/lots of rifling. Here's a website that lists several Burnsides (each has some kind of issue) but notice that the prices are a lot higher than the $1200 you mentioned.

Civil War Era Guns - Merz Antique Firearms - Civil War Era Guns

We specialize in Winchester Antique Firearms made by the Winchester Repeating Arms Co. of New Haven, CT. We have the largest inventory of antique lever-action Winchester Rifles and Carbines in the world. Civil War Era Guns

www.merzantiques.com

The ones on that website are comparably priced to many others in similar condition, based on my own recent research. I'd love to hear what others think about the price of the one you posted about, or what they would expect to get for $1200.

 

[steamboater]

You asked if they are desireable...they are indeed, especially by me. I am in the process of closing a deal on one. It will likely get shipped to me tomorrow. Can't wait! They are such a cool, cool gun.

Two weeks ago I knew nothing about the Burnside carbines. But I bought the book "Burnside Breechloading carbines and Rifles" by Edward Hull, and I now know a heck of a lot more about them. The book is more about the history of its development, the different models, the government contracts, and the confusing serial number sequencing...its not a technical book on field stripping, ammunition loads, etc., unfortunately. If anyone knows of a technical book, please let me know.

I have a copy of the 1996 book "Civil War Firearms" by Joseph G. Bilby. It covers most arms in great detail, including his experiences with shooting many, including several paragraphs on the Burnside. A caption of one photo states "With some work, a Burnside shoots as well as a Sharps". This means experimenting with ball or bullet diameters, powder grade and brands, and other peculiarities.

I have a bunch of CW arms (no Burnsides) and I found the book to be quite helpful in accurately burning black powder in my collection. I'll bet abebooks.com or their competitors have used copies.

 

[Specster]

$1200....really? The only ones available at that price are junk/have lots of issues. I think the one you posted pictures of would be worth $2,000 or more if the lever pin wasn't missing and the bore was very good/lots of rifling. Here's a website that lists several Burnsides (each has some kind of issue) but notice that the prices are a lot higher than the $1200 you mentioned.

Civil War Era Guns - Merz Antique Firearms - Civil War Era Guns

We specialize in Winchester Antique Firearms made by the Winchester Repeating Arms Co. of New Haven, CT. We have the largest inventory of antique lever-action Winchester Rifles and Carbines in the world. Civil War Era Guns

www.merzantiques.com

The ones on that website are comparably priced to many others in similar condition, based on my own recent research. I'd love to hear what others think about the price of the one you posted about, or what they would expect to get for $1200.

Yes I looked for five minutes and saw a bunch under $1500. If I hunted in more obscure places I would imagine I would find some under $1000. The condition of this one was very nice (colloquially, I dont want anyone jumping down my throat that it's actually Very Good or something like that).

Just trying to learn and not get burned