Longstreet

[Rebforever]

I look at the evening of 1st day when General Lee told Longstreet "the enemy is there we will fight him there.
Longstreet went to pieces after that reply and militarily off the mark the balance of the battle as is shown in todays history books.

 

[rpkennedy]

I look at the evening of 1st day when General Lee told Longstreet "the enemy is there we will fight him there.
Longstreet went to pieces after that reply and militarily off the mark the balance of the battle as is shown in todays history books.

Longstreet went to pieces? Do you have any evidence to back up that assertion? His actions bely that statement as he only led his troops in some of the hardest fighting up to that point in the war on July 2nd.

R

 

[Rebforever]

Longstreet went to pieces? Do you have any evidence to back up that assertion? His actions bely that statement as he only led his troops in some of the hardest fighting up to that point in the war on July 2nd.

R

Read any book you have about Longstreet and it is quite obvious he went to pieces so far he could not order the 3rd day attack. If I were to write a book to sell, then I might use more satisfying language. His refusing to follow orders day 2 was the start.

 

[rpkennedy]

Read any book you have about Longstreet and it is quite obvious he went to pieces so far he could not order the 3rd day attack. If I were to write a book to sell, then I might use more satisfying language. His refusing to follow orders day 2 was the start.

What orders did he disobey on the 2nd?

R

 

[Rebforever]

What orders did he disobey on the 2nd?

R

"Before dawn of July 2, Longstreet rejoined Lee on Seminary Ridge. The I Corps commander had not been able to hide from his staff at the previous evening's meal his disagreement with Lee's decision to renew attacks. Now, for a second time, Longstreet repeated his proposal for a broad turning movement around Meade's left flank. As he had on the afternoon of the 1st, Lee rejected it. He responded by informing Longstreet that he would need the services of the divisions headed by Maj. Gens. Lafayette McLaws and John Bell Hood."

http://www.historynet.com/americas-...nd-james-longstreet-at-odds-at-gettysburg.htm

 

[rpkennedy]

"Before dawn of July 2, Longstreet rejoined Lee on Seminary Ridge. The I Corps commander had not been able to hide from his staff at the previous evening's meal his disagreement with Lee's decision to renew attacks. Now, for a second time, Longstreet repeated his proposal for a broad turning movement around Meade's left flank. As he had on the afternoon of the 1st, Lee rejected it. He responded by informing Longstreet that he would need the services of the divisions headed by Maj. Gens. Lafayette McLaws and John Bell Hood."

http://www.historynet.com/americas-...nd-james-longstreet-at-odds-at-gettysburg.htm

You're going to need a lot more than that since no one mentioned a morning attack order until the 1870s.

Is there a copy of the order? Why didn't Lee mention this order?

There is no evidence that such an order existed in July 1863.

R

 

[Lost Cause]

Read any book you have about Longstreet and it is quite obvious he went to pieces so far he could not order the 3rd day attack. If I were to write a book to sell, then I might use more satisfying language. His refusing to follow orders day 2 was the start.

He knew the attack on third day would fail. That does not mean he went to pieces by not directly ordering the attack that Longstreet had already described to his subordinate generals. Generals are, of course, expected to give orders where men under their commands die. Frontal assaults had proven time and time again to fail without gain. The direct order for the deliberate sacrifice of three divisions was a task that replaces common sense over a displaced sense of courage. The battle of Franklin is a more glaring example.

 

[Rebforever]

He knew the attack on third day would fail. That does not mean he went to pieces by not directly ordering the attack that Longstreet had already described to his subordinate generals. Generals are, of course, expected to give orders where men under their commands die. Frontal assaults had proven time and time again to fail without gain. The direct order for the deliberate sacrifice of three divisions was a task that replaces common sense over a displaced sense of courage. The battle of Franklin is a more glaring example.

Regardless, he did not do what he was supposed to do or what he was expected to do. That should be quite obvious. THus disobey Lee's orders.

 

[Lost Cause]

Regardless, he did not do what he was supposed to do or what he was expected to do. That should be quite obvious. THus disobey Lee's orders.

Defeat was quite obvious

 

[rpkennedy]

Regardless, he did not do what he was supposed to do or what he was expected to do. That should be quite obvious. THus disobey Lee's orders.

He carried out his orders from Lee to the letter on the 2nd. Lee wanted him to attack up the Emmittsburg Road, rolling up the Union flank as he went. The attack force began to come apart as Union troops were in positions that they weren't supposed to be in and elements of Hood's Division pursued the 2nd US Sharpshooters back towards the Round Tops.

Lee was not unhappy with Longstreet's performance on the 2nd by all accounts so, why should we be?

R

 

[Lost Cause]

He carried out his orders from Lee to the letter on the 2nd. Lee wanted him to attack up the Emmittsburg Road, rolling up the Union flank as he went. The attack force began to come apart as Union troops were in positions that they weren't supposed to be in and elements of Hood's Division pursued the 2nd US Sharpshooters back towards the Round Tops.

Lee was not unhappy with Longstreet's performance on the 2nd by all accounts so, why should we be?

R

Because Early couldn't let it go.

 

[JerseyBart]

He carried out his orders from Lee to the letter on the 2nd. Lee wanted him to attack up the Emmittsburg Road, rolling up the Union flank as he went. The attack force began to come apart as Union troops were in positions that they weren't supposed to be in and elements of Hood's Division pursued the 2nd US Sharpshooters back towards the Round Tops.

Lee was not unhappy with Longstreet's performance on the 2nd by all accounts so, why should we be?

R

Because he criticized Lee and took a job from his friend, Ulysses S. Grant...nono's in the postwar south.

 

[Lost Cause]

Because he criticized Lee and took a job from his friend, Ulysses S. Grant...nono's in the postwar south.

That did not help.

 

[Lost Cause]

On a side note, I previously heard a story of an anniversary reenactment of Pickett's Charge. After the charge, Lee advised it was all his fault and then a reenactor yelled out "**** right it was!"

 

[JEB]

It would really help if written orders existed .

Ever since the" lost "orders that were wrapped up in cigars Lee stopped providing written orders to his suborinates for fear they would fall into the wrong hands .

We will never know for sure if Longstreet was given specific instructions .

I tend to agree that Longstreet experienced some kind of breakdown .

One thing we all should agree on : Longstreet had little faith the July 2nd attack would succeed and NO FAITH whatsoever that July 3rd would be successful .

I can't imagine the stress he must of been under knowing he was sending all those men to their deaths . All his thoughts of loyalty ,duty , honor etc etc...all that responsibility put him at odds with himself . Plus his children had recently all died . His mental and emotional state is unimaginable to me ....and to most people of this era .

Had Longstreet been 100% I believe he would of been able to influence Gen Lee and events would have turned out different .

 

[thomas aagaard]

http://www.historynet.com/americas-...nd-james-longstreet-at-odds-at-gettysburg.htm

The page have no footnotes. Making it worthless as anything other than an opinion.
---

I don't think anyone here is arguing that he was at his best during the fight at Gettysburg.

But having a bad day or two is very far from disobeying orders. The first gets you fired - the last gets you a court martial.

I actually think he can be blamed for not disobeying orders on the 3rd. It is rather clear that he was sure that the attack would fail... so he should have refused to carry out the order... and then take the consequences.
And It is clear that the planning of the attack on the 3rd could have been better... something that was his responsibility.

But that is still no excuse to invent an order about a morning attack on the 2nd.

 

[Lost Cause]

It would really help if written orders existed .

Ever since the" lost "orders that were wrapped up in cigars Lee stopped providing written orders to his suborinates for fear they would fall into the wrong hands .

We will never know for sure if Longstreet was given specific instructions .

I tend to agree that Longstreet experienced some kind of breakdown .

One thing we all should agree on : Longstreet had little faith the July 2nd attack would succeed and NO FAITH whatsoever that July 3rd would be successful .

I can't imagine the stress he must of been under knowing he was sending all those men to their deaths . All his thoughts of loyalty ,duty , honor etc etc...all that responsibility put him at odds with himself . Plus his children had recently all died . His mental and emotional state is unimaginable to me ....and to most people of this era .

Had Longstreet been 100% I believe he would of been able to influence Gen Lee and events would have turned out different .

I agree about Longstreet's mental state concerning the loss of his children and his troops. However, stating Longstreet's inability to influence Lee somewhat detracts Lee from his responsibility of the outcome. There were many factors that led to the Confederate defeat at Gettysburg, the AOP being one of them.

 

[rpkennedy]

It would really help if written orders existed .

Ever since the" lost "orders that were wrapped up in cigars Lee stopped providing written orders to his suborinates for fear they would fall into the wrong hands .

We will never know for sure if Longstreet was given specific instructions .

I tend to agree that Longstreet experienced some kind of breakdown .

One thing we all should agree on : Longstreet had little faith the July 2nd attack would succeed and NO FAITH whatsoever that July 3rd would be successful .

I can't imagine the stress he must of been under knowing he was sending all those men to their deaths . All his thoughts of loyalty ,duty , honor etc etc...all that responsibility put him at odds with himself . Plus his children had recently all died . His mental and emotional state is unimaginable to me ....and to most people of this era .

Had Longstreet been 100% I believe he would of been able to influence Gen Lee and events would have turned out different .

We have a bunch of orders from Lee to subordinates, post-Antietam. Even if we didn't have the order, we might have a receipt of orders or even a reference to the orders in another document.

Captain Johnston didn't complete his reconnaissance off to the south until early morning so Lee had no set plans until late morning when his first orders go out (about 1100). These are the instructions with which Longstreet is working.

Gettysburg is vintage Lee in that he was always an aggressive gambler but, this time, he rolled craps (his big gamble at Chancellorsville went his way big time). He has to accept responsibility (which he did) and there simply wasn't anything Longstreet could have done to persuade him to act differently.

R

 

[OpnCoronet]

I agree with those, who believe, the controversy over Longstreet's actions, tend to distract attention from the actions(and inactions) of Lee on all three days of the battle and thustends to shift most attention(and blame) from Lee.

 

[cash]

Wondering about whether or not Longstreet could have changed Lee's mind assumes that Longstreet was right.

I don't think he was.