Longstreet

[Nathanb1]

"You'd argue with a doorknob" is an attack.

Good commanders go and see for themselves when they can. Jackson could and did. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. What he did wrong was returning to a place that was different from where he left his lines.

No, it's a truth. Not unkindly meant, but said in frustration. Quibbling over crumbs is counter productive. But you go ahead if you enjoy it. I made my point and I'm done.

 

[Barrycdog]

 

[Canadian_Cavalry]

I read where Longstreet's tardiness in starting that afternoon attack was of an unplanned benefit while Sickles went out for his afternoon stroll for peaches leaving a bit of a gap on his left flank..

 

[ole]

I read where Longstreet's tardiness in starting that afternoon attack was of an unplanned benefit while Sickles went out for his afternoon stroll for peaches leaving a bit of a gap on his left flank..

Ummmmm. I don't know if peach trees grow in Canada, but peaches on July 2nd in Pennsylvania, are quite inedible. Yes, I'm just funnin. Welcome aboard.

 

[Canadian_Cavalry]

Speaking of inedible peaches...when I was in the Peach Orchard with my guide...we talked about the trees being genetically modified NOT to bear fruit. I was quick to point out that the trees had a mind of their own. There were peaches.

 

[ole]

Speaking of inedible peaches...when I was in the Peach Orchard with my guide...we talked about the trees being genetically modified NOT to bear fruit. I was quick to point out that the trees had a mind of their own. There were peaches.

I can understand why the park service would not want to mess with a peach crop, although it could be a source of income. I'd pay a buck for a peach from the Peach Orchard. What good is a peach orchard without peaches?

 

[Lefty]

Speaking of the peaches Ole.....the NPS did apparently sanction their being harvested early this Fall when their growing season peaked. I'm sure they were removed before falling so that the bees, insects, deer etc. didn't go to town on the fallen remains thereby possibly disturbing visitors to the orchard. Don't know where the peaches or the proceeds went but they were original Scherfy peaches.

Canadian_Cavalry- - - I think your Guide, correct me if I'm wrong, meant that the newer apple trees/orchards were genetically modified to not produce fruit but no such current luck with the peaches thus far, that orchard being only recently replanted. That's what the Park personnel in the know told us to relate. Those bags hanging from various trees contain predatory urine, hair etc. to keep the deer from picking at the vegetation.

 

[Elennsar]

On the issue of Longstreet, something I'm wondering if anyone else has an opinion on: http://www.gamersarchive.net/theGamers/archive/LCV.htm (the Game Specific Rules file, pages 9-14)

Maybe it's my biases, but I can't help but think Longstreet is being subject to a harsher standard of what is or is not a "below average commander" than is entirely appropriate.

 

[War Horse]

On the issue of Longstreet, something I'm wondering if anyone else has an opinion on: http://www.gamersarchive.net/theGamers/archive/LCV.htm (the Game Specific Rules file, pages 9-14)

Maybe it's my biases, but I can't help but think Longstreet is being subject to a harsher standard of what is or is not a "below average commander" than is entirely appropriate.

This was a very interesting read.

 

[FarawayFriend]

I'll second that. Thank you!

 

[Elennsar]

Welcome.

There's some good (or at least interesting) stuff in most of the historical notes/observations made by the designers of those games, not just that one, so I'd recommend it to anyone who wants to look at the things for other battles they cover (except Franklin, which suffers from leaning on Sword's execrable book).

 

[cash]

Speaking of inedible peaches...when I was in the Peach Orchard with my guide...we talked about the trees being genetically modified NOT to bear fruit. I was quick to point out that the trees had a mind of their own. There were peaches.

Welcome to the forum.

I think your guide was passing along bad information. None of the rangers have ever mentioned that to me, and I've spoken with quite a few of them on several occasions.

You are allowed to pick and consume fruit in national parks. You just can't pick it in a large quantity.

 

[Canadian_Cavalry]

I think he meant that since it was not supposed to actually bear fruit (genetically modified) and due to the fact it actually was, he just wasn't sure if it was OK. That's my best guess.

 

[ellsworthpc]

--snipping--

I think Longstreet was the best corp commander in the Confederate army.......even better than Jackson. Jackson, however, was much better at independent command, where Longstreet struggled.

A better analogy might be that Longstreet knew how to play the anvil and get the most out of a minimally fortified position, using the "ground" (battlefield terrain), etc. including artillery, freeing Jackson to act as hammer/sword, fulfilling a role more like Patton did in WWII. Other very superior army officers held many of the lines in WWII-Europe, where Patton created a role where he was free to cut loose and get to flanking artillery positions, etc. Some fun reading there -- some of the artillery moves and countermoves that ultimately exhausted the Nazi war machine of useful armor.

 

[thomas aagaard]

Longstreet commanded some of the most effective attacks of the war.
2nd Mananas, 2nd day Gettysburg and at Chickamauga...

 

[novushomus]

--snipping--

A better analogy might be that Longstreet knew how to play the anvil and get the most out of a minimally fortified position, using the "ground" (battlefield terrain), etc. including artillery, freeing Jackson to act as hammer/sword, fulfilling a role more like Patton did in WWII. Other very superior army officers held many of the lines in WWII-Europe, where Patton created a role where he was free to cut loose and get to flanking artillery positions, etc. Some fun reading there -- some of the artillery moves and countermoves that ultimately exhausted the Nazi war machine of useful armor.

There was never a campaign where the command dynamic in the Army of Northern Virginia was Longstreet the anvil and Jackson the hammer, despite it being popularized by Bob Krick the Elder.

In the Seven Days Campaigns, Longstreet and Jackson were usually slotted for offensive roles, with exceptions (Glendale, where Jackson and Huger were supposed to strike the Federal flanks, and Malvern Hill where Longstreet was in reserve). At the Second Manassas Campaign, the best description would be Jackson was the maneuver element and Longstreet the assaulting element. It was Jackson who held the main attention of Pope's army while Longstreet delivered the decisive blow.

At Antietam, both Jackson and Longstreet were defensive at the battle and maneuver elements in the campaign. And they were defensive at Fredericksburg as well. And at Chancellorsville, Longstreet was detached.

I think its a simplification when we try to categorize officers or units in such a manner. Lee, a sophisticated general, often needed different generals capable of doing different duties simultaneously. I don't think Lee approached a campaign with the attitude of "Longstreet is good at this and Jackson is good at that, so Longstreet's Corps will do this and Jackson's Corps will do that." His command approach and the strategic situation required flexibility.

 

[War Horse]

There was never a campaign where the command dynamic in the Army of Northern Virginia was Longstreet the anvil and Jackson the hammer, despite it being popularized by Bob Krick the Elder.

In the Seven Days Campaigns, Longstreet and Jackson were usually slotted for offensive roles, with exception (Glendale, where Jackson and Huger were supposed to strike the Federal flanks, and Malvern Hill where Longstreet was in reserve). At the Second Manassas Campaign, the best description would be Jackson was the maneuver element and Longstreet the assaulting element. It was Jackson who held the main attention of Pope's army while Longstreet delivered the decisive blow.
At the Antietam Battle, both Jackson and Longstreet were defensive at the battle and maneuver elements in the campaign. And they were defensive at Fredericksburg as well. And at Chancellorsville, Longstreet was detached.

I think its a simplification when we try to categorize officers or units in such a manner. Lee, a sophisticated general, often needed different generals capable of doing different duties simultaneously. I don't think Lee approached a campaign with the attitude of "Longstreet is good at this and Jackson is good at that, so Longstreet's Corps will do this and Jackson's Corps will do that." His command approach and the strategic situation required flexibility.

Not to mention, at 2nd Manassas Longstreet was the surprise element that Pope completely ignored.

 

[ellsworthpc]

--snipping--

There was never a campaign where the command dynamic in the Army of Northern Virginia was Longstreet the anvil and Jackson the hammer, despite it being popularized by Bob Krick the Elder.
...the best description would be Jackson was the maneuver element and Longstreet the assaulting element. ...

Yes! Well said -- way better terminology than my anvil and sword. On the major "fantasy battle what ifs" -->I'm going to give Ewell the benefit of the doubt in terms of "taking that hill" and have Jackson possibly arrive for battle at Gettysburg by day 2. Whether the AofNV can then win or not, Jackson's corp as a "manuever element" would have likely given the Union Left flank a whole lot of worry -- a level of movement that didn't materialize enough to capture the Top(s).