Lee's prewar reputation

[rhp6033]

How and from whom, did Lee receive his job as CinC of Va. troops? Were they not the same Tidewater oligarchs who would later press his name to Davis' attention.


P.S. apparently Lee had already been sounded out(offered?) the Va. post even before he resigned his commission. I bring this up, because of the great store some people have in his protestations that he was hoping to retire to civilian life without having to draw his sword against the United States, when, in fact, he was informed that the top military job in Va. was his for the taking, waiting for his resignation for the United States Army..

My understanding was that Lee was waiting for the decision of the special Virginia Constitutional Convention before making a decision. It was that same convention that awarded Lee command of Virginia's military forces (such as they were at the time). Lee didn't accept the Virginia commission until after he resigned the U.S. commission, so I'd be interested in seeing how many days passed between the two. Yes, the commission was made up largly of Virginia politicians who were disproportionately represented by the Tidewater FFV's. But they had others to choose from, as well.

It is also true that Lee looked the part, and that certainly helped him in his career. Although Light Horse Harry Lee had squandered much of the family fortune on failed land speculation, he wasn't (by far) the only Revolutionary War hero to be caught up in the land rush following the war. Indeed, the first Bankruptcy Code was enacted by the first Congress under the U.S. Constitution to assist in getting Robert Morris (signer of the Constitution and effectively first treasurer of the U.S.) out of debtor's prison. But Lee's mother managed to keep a respectable appearance in a rented house in Arlington through careful budgeting and penny-pinching, habits which Lee acquired, also.

So by the time Lee was an officer in the Corps of Engineers, he knew how to conduct himself as a gentleman and an officer. His posture was ramrod-straight. His appearance was noted as being particularly handsome. He knew the social graces and was able to make an impact and a favorable reputation among even New York society, when posted there. But most importantly, his attention to his duties left room for no complaints. These are all important skills for a military man who aspires to high rank, either back then or even now.

As far as the tender of a U.S. command by Scott, Lee had one other attribute which was certainly in his favor. He was a Virginian, and a legitimate member of the FFV club. If he had accepted the offer, it may have had an impact upon the seccession vote . But Lee chose to wait for the results of the vote, rather than trying to enfluence it. Just a handful of months before, his private correspondence had condemned secession as a very bad idea, but he didn't consider himself a political figure - he was a military man who followed the orders of the civilian authrities.

 

[diane]

That's another good point, rhp6033. Had Scott talked Lee into staying Union, many other Virginians would have also. And, I wonder if Virginia would have passed secession? Not that Robert E Lee was so influential in Virginia - just that his surname was.

 

[Nathanb1]

Lee's rank...and the fact that he had earlier been passed up for other major commands, probably also played a role. Scott undoubtedly hoped a good position in the Union Army might sway him. I'm not sure it didn't backfire in a way. If I were Lee, I probably would have been thinking....."Oh, NOW you want me!"

 

[rhp6033]

Lee's rank...and the fact that he had earlier been passed up for other major commands, probably also played a role. Scott undoubtedly hoped a good position in the Union Army might sway him. I'm not sure it didn't backfire in a way. If I were Lee, I probably would have been thinking....."Oh, NOW you want me!"

Well, it wasn't that Lee was "passed up" for major commands. He was in the Corps of Engineers, which was a very small group during the pre-war years. And before standard military pensions and mandatory retirement regulations, there was no incentive for senior officers to retire. So Lee, and lots of other engineer-officers, were all waiting in a very long line for someone at the top to die or become infirm to the point they were forced to resign. This kept him in a field-grade position for most of his U.S. Army career, as an engineer.

So when the U.S. army almost doubled in size (1856?), it created opportunities in "line" units for quick advancement. So Lee transferred out of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and was assigned (initially) as second-in-command of a newly-created Texas Cavalry Unit. I think this immediately jumped him from Major to Lt. Colonel, and within a year or two he was in command as a Colonel (a very high rank in the pre-war Army). But he spent a lot of time on leave in Arlington so as to settle his father-in-law's estate.

So while he might have had some complaints earlier, it seems to me that they had been remedied and the U.S. Army was treating him fairly well, especially in the couple of years preceeding the war.

But while Lee respected Scott and had warm feelings toward him dating back to Mexico, I think Lee was smart enough to realize the political implications of the command being offered to him, and he was wary of being used in a way which might have helped Lincoln and the Union, but might have also meant the loss of all contact with his native state, his and his wife's heritage and extended family links.

 

[OpnCoronet]

Still what reputation Lee had, was within the Army(most especially Scott) and within the FFV oligarch, who governed the state. Was there much of
T a debate within the Va. gov't concerning who should command Va.'s troops?
The circle of people who knew of Lee and his qualities was quite small, but quite influential.

 

[Nathanb1]

Well, it wasn't that Lee was "passed up" for major commands. He was in the Corps of Engineers, which was a very small group during the pre-war years. And before standard military pensions and mandatory retirement regulations, there was no incentive for senior officers to retire. So Lee, and lots of other engineer-officers, were all waiting in a very long line for someone at the top to die or become infirm to the point they were forced to resign. This kept him in a field-grade position for most of his U.S. Army career, as an engineer.

So when the U.S. army almost doubled in size (1856?), it created opportunities in "line" units for quick advancement. So Lee transferred out of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and was assigned (initially) as second-in-command of a newly-created Texas Cavalry Unit. I think this immediately jumped him from Major to Lt. Colonel, and within a year or two he was in command as a Colonel (a very high rank in the pre-war Army). But he spent a lot of time on leave in Arlington so as to settle his father-in-law's estate.

So while he might have had some complaints earlier, it seems to me that they had been remedied and the U.S. Army was treating him fairly well, especially in the couple of years preceeding the war.

But while Lee respected Scott and had warm feelings toward him dating back to Mexico, I think Lee was smart enough to realize the political implications of the command being offered to him, and he was wary of being used in a way which might have helped Lincoln and the Union, but might have also meant the loss of all contact with his native state, his and his wife's heritage and extended family links.

I'm at school so I don't have my info...but wasn't he passed up for something he really wanted? I think Johnston or someone was given the command? Apparently that sort of smarted.

 

[Samuel.Sohm]

Lee was also the commander of the US army response to John Browns raid at Harpers Ferry before the war.

Weren't those marines?

 

[K Hale]

Weren't those marines?

Yes. Marines and a cavalryman on leave.

 

[diane]

A cavalryman who could recognize John Brown for sure, too!

 

[rhp6033]

I'm at school so I don't have my info...but wasn't he passed up for something he really wanted? I think Johnston or someone was given the command? Apparently that sort of smarted.

Perhaps, but I don't recall it. Joe Johnston and Lee were close friends from the early days of their first postings, even though Lee was in the Corps of Engineers and Johnston in the infantry, a "line" unit. I can't think of anything other than possibly when Johnston was given CSA command while Lee was forced to sit out the better part of a year as Davis' "advisor". But that would have been a complaint against the CSA, not the U.S. Army.

The only other thing I can think of is when Lee was first assigned to the cavalry, he served as Lt. Col. under Col. Albert Sydney Johston for two years in Texas. He was promoted to Col. of the 1st U.S. Cavalry in March 1861, but within a month the secession crisis in Virginia caused him to resign his U.S. Army commission.

 

[diane]

Wasn't it that Lee and A S Johnston were supposed to be reversed or some such, but Davis - who was Secretary of War - liked Johnston so much and promoted him instead? Lee had been waiting a long time for the promotion - it was slow going in the engineers - but, as was typical, he sucked it up and soldiered on. The other Johnston, Joe, was peeved because of the ranking of the top five CSA generals - Lee had been behind him in the US army and was now ahead of him...and that snit had large ramifications!

 

[Nathanb1]

Perhaps, but I don't recall it. Joe Johnston and Lee were close friends from the early days of their first postings, even though Lee was in the Corps of Engineers and Johnston in the infantry, a "line" unit. I can't think of anything other than possibly when Johnston was given CSA command while Lee was forced to sit out the better part of a year as Davis' "advisor". But that would have been a complaint against the CSA, not the U.S. Army.

The only other thing I can think of is when Lee was first assigned to the cavalry, he served as Lt. Col. under Col. Albert Sydney Johston for two years in Texas. He was promoted to Col. of the 1st U.S. Cavalry in March 1861, but within a month the secession crisis in Virginia caused him to resign his U.S. Army commission.

I promise I'll look tomorrow unless I don't wake up. It's 1:49 and I just got home about 20 minutes ago from the game. I've frozen all night and I'm actually waiting for the electric blanky to heat up. Not to mention being bone tired. We won, but old ladies are NOT meant to run up and down the field two games in a row.