Jesse James

[A. Roy]

This post makes total sense to me. Reconstruction hurt the south, sticking up for these carpetbaggers who were nothing more than ligalized robbers is wrong. Whatever one might feel about the south, the people there, the 80,000 widows and such did not desearve the treatment they were subjected to after the war. JJ was a hero to many in Missiouri and still may be.
JJ should not be included in decussions of Clyde Barrow who was nothing more than a cowardly punk, good time robber and killer with no real purpose to his actions where JJ had pleanty of justification for that period in time to hurt the railroads, scalpers and carpetbaggers who both killed and stole from his people and friends throughout the south..JJ was a hero to many, perhaps still today after all. put yourself in his time period living in Missiouri after the war...I think some living in the now would have joined him..

Just a reminder that this thread is about Jesse James, not about Reconstruction in the post-war south. If it drifts into disputing about Reconstruction in general, there is a risk of intervention by CWT's excellent moderation team.
AR

 

[archieclement]

So this is basically why I wrote the post I did earlier. You are claiming that all this violence was one sided and was not prompted by anything? I am finding that hard to believe, especially with respect to the long history of violence in the area going back to Bleeding Kansas. It sounds like retribution for past acts. But again, I admit I dont know.

If you have evidence of Jesse or his step father actually doing something prior to the event leading to him joining guerrillas, provide it, be glad to see it.

Not aware of them having done so, certainly don't seem to have been charged or convicted of any crime.

 

[archieclement]

So this is basically why I wrote the post I did earlier. You are claiming that all this violence was one sided and was not prompted by anything? I am finding that hard to believe, especially with respect to the long history of violence in the area going back to Bleeding Kansas. It sounds like retribution for past acts. But again, I admit I dont know.

Again not sure your point.

If it was done to someone who had done nothing, it was indeed one sided in those cases. As it's hardly retribution against people who did no crime.

Was there violence occurring from both sides during the war, yes, but certainly only one side was supposed to represent law and order after 1862. I would certainly find those abuses the worst.

One expects criminals to act like criminals. One doesn't expect what's supposed to represent legal authorities to act as criminals.

The retribution angle is always laughable. But by such logic, once Union troops "retribute" then their victims "retributing" would be equally excusable. An endless cycle of no one being wrong. So if its used to justify or explain jayhawker or militia misdeeds, no point to then turn around to complain of the counter retaliation it provokes from guerrillas.

 

[Borderruffian]

So this is basically why I wrote the post I did earlier. You are claiming that all this violence was one sided and was not prompted by anything? I am finding that hard to believe, especially with respect to the long history of violence in the area going back to Bleeding Kansas. It sounds like retribution for past acts. But again, I admit I dont know.

The Samuels place was raided because the Union knew Frank rode with Quantrll. Dr Samuels was dry hung and Jesse whipped because it was known Frank rode with Quantrill they were trying to obtain intelligence on WCQ and his band through the torture of civilians. Neither Reuben Samuels or Jesse James had been involved in the conflict to this point. The same as females related to Partisans were confined in the KC jail, to smoke their men folk. If you don't see that such actions are not civilized warfare, well then maybe Jim Lane will make you a Captain.

 

[JerryD]

An endless cycle of no one being wrong. So if its used to justify or explain jayhawker or militia misdeeds, no point to then turn around to complain of the counter retaliation it provokes from guerrillas.

Yep, that's what happens. I think you hit the nail on the head there. Except everyone is wrong. No one said retribution was legal. Not sure where you got that from. I am looking at motivation, not justification. You seem to think violence against the lawful authority should be accepted with a smile on their face. I'm guessing they were human, with human emotions. That is why the retribution cycle gets into an endless go round

 

[JerryD]

Not aware of them having done so, certainly don't seem to have been charged or convicted of any crime.

From wiki(no idea if this is true or not):

The American Civil War began in 1861, when James was eighteen years old. The secessionists in Missouri, including Governor Claiborne Fox Jackson, attempted to drive the Union army out of the state, but were eventually defeated. The James family was from the heavily Confederate western portion of the state. On September 13, 1861, the Missouri State Guard, including private Frank James, besieged Lexington, Missouri. James fell ill and was left behind when the Confederate forces retreated. He surrendered to the Union troops, was paroled, and was allowed to return home. On his arrival, however, he was arrested by the local pro-Union militia and was forced to sign an oath of allegiance to the Union.

After the withdrawal of regular Confederate troops in the fall of 1861, a bitter guerrilla conflict soon began between bands of pro-Confederate irregulars (commonly known as bushwhackers) and the Union homeguards. By early 1863, Frank, ignoring his parole and oath of allegiance, had joined the guerrilla band of Fernando Scott, a former saddler. He soon switched to the more active command led by William Clarke Quantrill.

 

[TallTallMan]

Just a reminder that this thread is about Jesse James, not about Reconstruction in the post-war south. If it drifts into disputing about Reconstruction in general, there is a risk of intervention by CWT's excellent moderation team.
AR

Yes! Let's please not shut this down!

 

[JerryD]

The Samuels place was raided because the Union knew Frank rode with Quantrll. Dr Samuels was dry hung and Jesse whipped because it was known Frank rode with Quantrill they were trying to obtain intelligence on WCQ and his band through the torture of civilians. Neither Reuben Samuels or Jesse James had been involved in the conflict to this point. The same as females related to Partisans were confined in the KC jail, to smoke their men folk. If you don't see that such actions are not civilized warfare, well then maybe Jim Lane will make you a Captain.

When did I say anything remotely like that? I was seeking info. Don't get your knickers in a twist cause I asked a question. I think I have been clear that my understanding is that the warfare in Mo. was barbaric. My only point is that I had heard it was done on both sides, but you seem to be taking the position that the southern sympathizers were meekly accepting all this abuse, which I find more than a little unbelievable. I am willing to bet that a lot of pro-Union folks got abused at some point as well.

 

[RedRover]

@RedRover This is your cue!

Here's the Wikipedia description:

Sometime in the early 1880s, Dr Frankenstein's evil granddaughter Maria has moved to the American West with her brother Rudolph, in order to use the prairie lightning storms in her experiments on immigrant children snatched from a dying town. Maria is very much in charge, killing the children and replacing their brains with artificial ones, intending to revive them as her slaves. Rudolph, however, is reluctant to help his sister, but is too afraid of her to do otherwise. After a number of failures (owing to Rudolph secretly poisoning the victims as soon as his sister revives them), they are finding it increasingly difficult to hide the trail of bodies. Down the road, Mañuel Lopez and his wife Nina decide to leave town with their daughter Juanita because of the frequent disappearances, the latest of which is that of their son.

The first Jesse James movie, "Jesse James under the Black Flag" (1921) featured his son, Jesse Jr., portraying his father...

There's a 1930 re-edit of the movie on youtube. The closing credit card:

Swinging the pendulum the other way, was the "Brady Bunch" episode of 1973 which made Jesse James out the polar opposite of the cinematic figure...

Brady Bunch, the real Jesse James, Youtube...

 

[archieclement]

Yep, that's what happens. I think you hit the nail on the head there. Except everyone is wrong. No one said retribution was legal. Not sure where you got that from. I am looking at motivation, not justification. You seem to think violence against the lawful authority should be accepted with a smile on their face. I'm guessing they were human, with human emotions. That is why the retribution cycle gets into an endless go round

Not at all, however when the lawful authority isn't being lawful, but the problem.........it's obviously not normal circumstances.

I certainly understand in situations where there is no lawful authority to turn to, people tend to take things in their own hands.

If your farm was robbed, and your father goes to town to complain, then is shot going home? What authorities do you go to? The ones that shot your father for complaining previously?

 

[TallTallMan]

The first Jesse James movie, "Jesse James under the Black Flag" (1921) featured his son, Jesse Jr., portraying his father...

View attachment 508414

There's a 1930 re-edit of the movie on youtube. The closing credit card:

View attachment 508419


Swinging the pendulum the other way, was the "Brady Bunch" episode of 1973 which made Jesse James out the polar opposite of the cinematic figure...

Brady Bunch, the real Jesse James, Youtube...

Like when Mosby played himself (now lost).

 

[Borderruffian]

Just a reminder that this thread is about Jesse James, not about Reconstruction in the post-war south. If it drifts into disputing about Reconstruction in general, there is a risk of intervention by CWT's excellent moderation team.
AR

Actually when you're discussing the hows and why's that Jesse and several original members of the James-Younger gang slid into outlawry Radical Reconstruction is very germaine to that discussion not to after events or to their Partisan days but early days.

 

[archieclement]

From wiki(no idea if this is true or not):

The American Civil War began in 1861, when James was eighteen years old. The secessionists in Missouri, including Governor Claiborne Fox Jackson, attempted to drive the Union army out of the state, but were eventually defeated. The James family was from the heavily Confederate western portion of the state. On September 13, 1861, the Missouri State Guard, including private Frank James, besieged Lexington, Missouri. James fell ill and was left behind when the Confederate forces retreated. He surrendered to the Union troops, was paroled, and was allowed to return home. On his arrival, however, he was arrested by the local pro-Union militia and was forced to sign an oath of allegiance to the Union.

After the withdrawal of regular Confederate troops in the fall of 1861, a bitter guerrilla conflict soon began between bands of pro-Confederate irregulars (commonly known as bushwhackers) and the Union homeguards. By early 1863, Frank, ignoring his parole and oath of allegiance, had joined the guerrilla band of Fernando Scott, a former saddler. He soon switched to the more active command led by William Clarke Quantrill.

Indeed, so he was paroled, then harassed, then joined guerrillas.

None of which Reuban or Jesse would been either responsible or accountable for. Certainly nothing to be whipped or dry hung for.

That's where there is a distinction to me, once someone actively joins a belligerent, whether CS or Union army, or guerrilla or state militia you become a target, you actively decided to be a belligerent.

That's not the same as civilians who havent.

 

[Kurtlg]

The first Jesse James movie, "Jesse James under the Black Flag" (1921) featured his son, Jesse Jr., portraying his father...

View attachment 508414

There's a 1930 re-edit of the movie on youtube. The closing credit card:

View attachment 508419


Swinging the pendulum the other way, was the "Brady Bunch" episode of 1973 which made Jesse James out the polar opposite of the cinematic figure...

Brady Bunch, the real Jesse James, Youtube...

Although I detested the Brady Bunch it was good to see Burt Mustin.

 

[Borderruffian]

When did I say anything remotely like that? I was seeking info. Don't get your knickers in a twist cause I asked a question. I think I have been clear that my understanding is that the warfare in Mo. was barbaric. My only point is that I had heard it was done on both sides, but you seem to be taking the position that the southern sympathizers were meekly accepting all this abuse, which I find more than a little unbelievable. I am willing to bet that a lot of pro-Union folks got abused at some point as well.

Well first that's not Archie's post Second I never said the population of Missouri "weekly" accepted it that wouldn't explain all the Partisan bands that formed 61 thru 63. Not " seeking retribution" wasn't an option. The state of Missouri was basically under Military Rule, Civil Courts suspended and replaced by Military Tribunals or Provost Marshals " Courts" where verdicts were often predictable. Civil Authority ( Law enforcement) was suspended in all but certain municipal centers and then only in partially. Missouri was basically under a semi-declared Martial Law. So the question becomes to who do report abuses committed by uninformed Union troops when the end result may you getting sent to Gratiot Prison as a disloyal Southern Sympathizer? You may have totally loyal..
.but it wouldn't matter at all for various reasons such as your nieghbor wanting your land or stock.

 

[gc45]

What has to be remembered is the the James-Younger gang started becoming folk heroes during the Radical Republican Reconstruction in Missouri. Former CS soldiers, their family members and even extended family members were purposely punished in taxes, property seizures, being disinfrancised, being unable to vote etc. The gang was seen by a good many as valiant knights errant by robbing Northern business interests i.e. Rail Roads and banks, thus avenging the wrongs committed by the Fletcher Government and Radical Republican faction of Republican Party

Just a reminder that this thread is about Jesse James, not about Reconstruction in the post-war south. If it drifts into disputing about Reconstruction in general, there is a risk of intervention by CWT's excellent moderation team.
AR

So 1865 to Jesse's death also includes the reconstruction period, is not that much of why he became what he did?. Why should mentioning reconstruction involve the monitors? In all respect I just don't understand your concern. Seems like to much sesitivity here after all, is the James family and what happened to them, including Jeese and Frank, not part of the reconstruction period and where are the rules that state only one topic per thread, don't many topics sort of run conguantly in threads here on CWT? In all respect, I remain confused as to your concern but open to any explanations.

Just a reminder that this thread is about Jesse James, not about Reconstruction in the post-war south. If it drifts into disputing about Reconstruction in general, there is a risk of intervention by CWT's excellent moderation team.
AR

 

[A. Roy]

So 1865 to Jesse's death also includes the reconstruction period, is not that much of why he became what he did?. Why should mentioning reconstruction involve the monitors? In all respect I just don't understand your concern. Seems like to much sesitivity here after all, is the James family and what happened to them, including Jeese and Frank, not part of the reconstruction period and where are the rules that state only one topic per thread, don't many topics sort of run conguantly in threads here on CWT? In all respect, I remain confused as to your concern but open to any explanations.

The problem could arise if this gets to be a dispute about Reconstruction throughout the whole South, or if the tone is just partisan griping. If there's a tangible point to be made about how Reconstruction affected Jesse James, that could be useful.
AR

 

[JackADriscoll]

Do any of James letters or writings or anything exist? Anyone own any of those antique dime novels? They certainly play a role

 

[7thWisconsin]

Do any of James letters or writings or anything exist? Anyone own any of those antique dime novels? They certainly play a role

I don´t think Jesse was much of a writer. Other than the press releases the gang famously posted from time to time, I can´t think of anything substantial. The members of the family who lived a long time left a fair bit of remembrances behind, but, as much fun as they are to read, they are understandably biased. If Zerelda James left any writings, they would be interesting. Frank said that Jesse was really quite religous. I´ve always found that angle interesting and unexplored too.

 

[A. Roy]

During my youth, I had kind of a soft spot for Jesse and thought of him as a Robin Hood-type character. A popular folk song about Jesse I remember as pretty easy to play on guitar -- I used to sing it sometimes with friends. The part I remember best is the refrain:

Poor Jesse had a wife to mourn for his life.
Three children, they were brave.
But that dirty little coward that shot Mr. Howard
Has laid Jesse James in his grave.

I know there are variations on these lyrics, but all of the versions present Jesse James as a hero and Robert Ford as a scheming coward.

ARB