Edged Wpns Help with sword ID

[Epfireman]

31.5 on spine , 31.75 on edge

That's from hilt to tip and not total length

 

[bayonet]

It does have a faint US etched into one side of the blade…. Isn't indicative it was a CW sword ?

Well you should of told us that from the beginning. I would say that yes that is a strong possibility now.

 

[R. Porter]

I just realized that the scabbard that you first showed with your sword is not the same as the scabbard lying on the file folder marked, "Costa Rica." The first scabbard is German-made for an enlisted cavalry saber, but missing the drag and throat, dating from the Civil War period. The scabbard lying on the Costa Rica file is the model 1906. Is that a Different sword too?

 

[Epfireman]

The scabbard in the picture with this sword appears to be a model 1906. They fit a number of Ames early war model 1860 cavalry blades and are often found with model 1860 cavalry sabers offered for sale.

Thank you

 

[Epfireman]

Well if the SH denotes the maker then I'd say it's a maker mark not a marker mark. Goodness what will you ask next how many slacking off enlisted men the Officer whacked on the head with the flat side of the blade to get them to move out?

I'm sorry for my typo… I apologize if I offended you by my question or my typo… I'm new and I'm trying to learn….

 

[Epfireman]

I just realized that the scabbard that you first showed with your sword is not the same as the scabbard lying on the file folder marked, "Costa Rica." The first scabbard is German-made for an enlisted cavalry saber, but missing the drag and throat, dating from the Civil War period. The scabbard lying on the Costa Rica file is the model 1906. Is that a Different sword too?

Thank you

 

[bayonet]

I'm sorry for my typo… I apologize if I offended you by my question or my typo… I'm new and I'm trying to learn….

Well like they always say here "buy the Reference Books first". If you want to collect these Swords. For just a few Hundred you can get a better in shape Officers sword and for a few hundred more ones with the correct scabbard.

 

[Epfireman]

I just realized that the scabbard that you first showed with your sword is not the same as the scabbard lying on the file folder marked, "Costa Rica." The first scabbard is German-made for an enlisted cavalry saber, but missing the drag and throat, dating from the Civil War period. The scabbard lying on the Costa Rica file is the model 1906. Is that a Different sword too?

Thank you

Well like they always say here "buy the Reference Books first". If you want to collect these Swords. For just a few Hundred you can get a better in shape Officers sword and for a few hundred more ones with the correct scabbard.

im not trying to become a collector, I'm just trying to learn as much as I can about my grandfathers sword so I can pass it on to my sons with some accurate info on it

 

[R. Porter]

In order for the blade of your sword to fit a cavalry scabbard it needs to be a cavalry blade. Since it has etching we can assume it was a officer's blade. A cavalry officer's sword is often shorter than a regular tooper's blade but still between about 34 inches and 34.5 inches. That would mean that your blade is cut down. You haven't shown the whole blade so we can't see if that has been done.

I didn't find any information about Helvig in Thillmann's cavalry sword book, but I did for Hoppe. Thillmann has an example of an officer's sword with a blade that is almost 34 inches long. It is a rather high quality sword. Officers had to purchase their own sword and this one was a bit too fancy to wear into battle. It had the standard cavalry hilt, only the officer's presentation version, and not an infantry hilt as appear on yours. Your hilt does appear to be a nice one and not a budget version. The Hoppe sword had the beehive maker's mark and the etching, from what I could tell, was different.

Looking at your blade, it is in rough shape. It has been cleaned up after accumulating a lot of rust and corrosion. It also appears that some one tried to shapen it with a file or power tools and doing a poor job of it. The damage to the blade is not reflected in the hilt and would suggest that the blade was exposed to the elements for a while before combined with the hilt. It's possible that this happened during the Civil War. It's also possible it happened afterward but it seems to have been done long ago. It may have been done during the 1930's when an antique dealer was trying to scrape by during the depression and put together two broken items into a sellable item but it also may have been done towards the end of the war by someone in the South when resources were tight and had to be stretched as far as they could go. At this point I couldn't hazzard a guess.

 

[bayonet]

Thank you

im not trying to become a collector, I'm just trying to learn as much as I can about my grandfathers sword so I can pass it on to my sons with some accurate info on it

Well at this point your Grandfather was not in the ACW (have you traced any relatives that were?) so I'd question it's family history especially since the sword and scabbard do not belong with each other. Don't feel bad I inherited a so called Rev War musket from my Father. Either he or who he got it from made up some BS story about it. Dad even had it blued which was not correct for the period piece. Turns out it was made after 1811 by it's markings. So I removed the bluing, sold it, and years later did buy a real period Rev War musket.

 

[Epfireman]

Thank you so much for the great information, it seems the makers mark is somewhat of an enigma. I've only found a couple places on the Internet with a similar barbell S&H design. Mine seems a little weird because it looks like it may have been double stamped because you can see the circles appeared to doubled up and there's two lines…. on cleaner versions I've seen on the Internet the circles were very clean and only one bar connecting those circles that would be a nice thing to find out who the actual maker is and if this was doubled stamped. I'm also confused on the Scabard because I've been told that it's not a foot officers scabbard and that it could be a mounted or Calvary. I don't know what the difference between a mounted and a Calvary scabbard would be. I read foot officers didn't use metal scabbards I don't know that to be true I'm starting to believe as you said that maybe it was paired with a sword. that It just happened to fit …someone did say that the scabbard could be much older than the sword but I don't know that to be true. Anyways, could you explain the difference between a mounted and a Calvary scabbard or they basically the same thing …. If you happen to find anything more definitive on that makers mark, I would sure appreciate knowing more about it.

 

[Epfireman]

Well at this point your Grandfather was not in the ACW (have you traced any relatives that were?) so I'd question it's family history especially since the sword and scabbard do not belong with each other. Don't feel bad I inherited a so called Rev War musket from my Father. Either he or who he got it from made up some BS story about it. Dad even had it blued which was not correct for the period piece. Turns out it was made after 1811 by it's markings. So I removed the bluing, sold it, and years later did buy a real period Rev War musket.

I don't believe from the stories I've been told it was used or owned by anybody in the family in the Civil War from what I've been told by my Uncle , my Uncle said grandfather, found it in the attic of a hotel in Central Kentucky and it's been in our family ever since sometime in the 1930s …. I am going to look into that number on the other side of the blade that appears to be a Social Security number and find out if that's from somebody in my hometown…. I just need to find a service that does that.

 

[Epfireman]

In order for the blade of your sword to fit a cavalry scabbard it needs to be a cavalry blade. Since it has etching we can assume it was a officer's blade. A cavalry officer's sword is often shorter than a regular tooper's blade but still between about 34 inches and 34.5 inches. That would mean that your blade is cut down. You haven't shown the whole blade so we can't see if that has been done.

I didn't find any information about Helvig in Thillmann's cavalry sword book, but I did for Hoppe. Thillmann has an example of an officer's sword with a blade that is almost 34 inches long. It is a rather high quality sword. Officers had to purchase their own sword and this one was a bit too fancy to wear into battle. It had the standard cavalry hilt, only the officer's presentation version, and not an infantry hilt as appear on yours. Your hilt does appear to be a nice one and not a budget version. The Hoppe sword had the beehive maker's mark and the etching, from what I could tell, was different.

Looking at your blade, it is in rough shape. It has been cleaned up after accumulating a lot of rust and corrosion. It also appears that some one tried to shapen it with a file or power tools and doing a poor job of it. The damage to the blade is not reflected in the hilt and would suggest that the blade was exposed to the elements for a while before combined with the hilt. It's possible that this happened during the Civil War. It's also possible it happened afterward but it seems to have been done long ago. It may have been done during the 1930's when an antique dealer was trying to scrape by during the depression and put together two broken items into a sellable item but it also may have been done towards the end of the war by someone in the South when resources were tight and had to be stretched as far as they could go. At this point I couldn't hazzard a guess.

Did anyone find out anything more on the makers mark on this sword.. I can't find anything so far

 

[observator]

The orginal scabbard could have been broken or lost..and the owner replaced it?
I think the shield engraving was done post civil war..so crude....