Hall Model 1836

[JOHN42768]

Also added. Carbine Type 1 Original .64 caliber dated 1837

 

[johan_steele]

VERY NICE!!!

 

[Jobe Holiday]

That is the first time I have seen the tool for that Hall, thank you!
J.

 

[JOHN42768]

That is the first time I have seen the tool for that Hall, thank you!
J.

That is the original wipe / puller that attaches to the back of the bayonet. The three way tool was missing ( Nipple pick, nipple wrench & screwdriver). This being the type 1 had the compartment in the stock (1017 made) the Type 2 (1013) was made without the compartment. Needless to say with only 1917 made, very few remain.

 

[UCVRelics]

Another nice one.

 

[originalrebelyell]

Very nice Hall

 

[vmicraig]

I've got a type II. I love these carbines....You can spot these carbines a mile away with that distinctive Hall breech. Here's a detailed summary write-up of the Hall and its development and use.

History: In all, only 2,020 M-1836 Hall carbines were produced, including the Type I, Type II and prototype and experimental carbines. This is one of the few instances where a national armory produced a specific pattern of arm for issue to one specific regiment within the regular army.

Although the M-1836 Hall Carbine patterns are officially a different model than the previously issued M-1833 Hall Carbine, one should understand the history of the M-1833 to appreciate the development of the M-1836, as they were so closely intertwined. The M-1833 Hall was initially adopted for issue to the newly formed 1st Dragoons. Dragoons were to be armed with the most advanced long arm of the day, a breech loading, percussion ignition carbine, which would be easy to handle, load and fire from horseback. The M-1833 was the first breech loading percussion carbine to be adopted by any military in the world, and was the first military percussion long arm to be adopted anywhere, preceding the use of the percussion cap on the M-1841 "Mississippi Rifle" by nearly a decade in the United States. The M-1833 also introduced the "ramrod bayonet", a rather clumsy and worthless design that the American military would continue to use on not only the M-1836, but also resurrecting it in the 1880's for use on Trapdoor rifles and in the early 20th century with the M-1903 rifle.
Initial orders were placed in 1834 for 1028 24-bore (.58) smoothbore carbines with 26 3/16" long barrels and 25 ¼" long ramrod bayonets. The guns were ordered from Simeon North, the only contractor to produce the Hall Patent breech-loading rifle.

The reason the M-1833 carbines were smoothbore was to accommodate buck and ball cartridges, which were considered the most efficient combat load for a long arm. These were the M-1833 "Type I" Carbines, issued to the First Regiment of Dragoons, who put them to good use at various posts throughout the west. The guns also included a covered implement compartment along the toe line of the stock, with a hinged iron door.

Subsequent orders were for the "Type II" M-1833 carbine, which a reduced caliber of .52. These were manufactured between 1836 and 1839 and were initially ordered to arm the 2nd Regiment of Dragoons, which had been organized to help fight the Second Seminole War (1835-1843). Almost immediately, however, there was a hue and cry from within the Ordnance Department regarding these additional arms. North was not considered to be in a position to deliver the carbines with any speed, due to his outstanding orders for Hall Rifles and other small arms. Additionally, a slow down in manufacturing at the Harpers Ferry rifle works (due to lack of rifle orders by the government) was threatening to result in layoffs and terminations from that pool of skilled laborers. Finally there was the long-standing US government policy to arm "regular" Army units only with small arms produced at the National Armories while lesser quality volunteers and state militias would be supplied with arms produced by contractors.

All of these problems and objections were solved by the adoption and ordering of the M-1836 Hall Breech Loading Carbine, which was to be manufactured at the Harpers Ferry rifle works. This would keep the workmen diligently employed, would relieve the pressure on North to deliver the carbines quickly and provide a source for government manufactured arms for the newly formed 2nd Regiment of Dragoons. In order to put the carbine into production as quickly as possible, with a few alterations to existing machinery and to reduce the need to build new machinery and fixtures, some changes were made to the M-1833 design to make it more like the M-1819 rifle that was already being produced at Harpers Ferry. The end result was that the M-1836 carbine closely resembled a shortened M-1819 rifle.

The exterior barrel dimensions remained the same for both the rifle and the carbine, with the exception of length. The carbine was manufactured with a somewhat handier 23" barrel, instead of the longer 26" barrel used on the M-1833. The sliding bayonet was also shortened from 25 ¼" to 22 ¼" in length. The bore of the barrel remained smooth, but the caliber was increased to .64. The rational was that this allowed the use of the service musket ball, which was a .64" round ball, used in the .69 smoothbore M-1816/22/28 series of muskets. Instead of machining a plate, sling bar and ring, a simple eyebolt stud was devised and mounted through the wrist of the carbine to allow attachment of a sling hook. The percussion hammer, which was one of the initial stumbling blocks to production at Harpers Ferry, was manufactured with a hole through its center. This allowed the hammer to be held in a jig during the machining processes. It may also have allowed the using of some of the older flintlock hammer machining jigs and fixtures, as those hammers also had a hole between the neck and jaw.

It is worth noting that the M-1836 was the first percussion arm manufactured at a national arsenal, and as such was a learning experience for the engineers and workmen. The first 1,000 carbines (Type I's) included an implement storage area in the toe line of the butt that had been incorporated on the first M-1833 carbines, and were delivered in 1837, the majority of which were issued almost immediately upon receipt to the 2nd Regiment of Dragoons in Florida.

The M-1836 "Type I" carbines were plagued by the usual problems of gas leakage, etc. that plagued all Hall designs. In 1839, an additional 1,000 M-1836 carbines were ordered from Harpers Ferry. These guns, known as "Type II" Halls, eliminated the implement compartment as an unnecessary, a feature which only increased the time and expense in manufacturing the carbines. Additionally, the slots in the stock that allowed gas to escape from between the stock and receiver were enlarged about 30%, from .13" to .17". This change alone should make it clear that escaping gasses were the bane of the Hall design. The thickness of the barrel was also increased about .05" to strengthen the barrel. These 1,000 carbines were all manufactured and delivered in 1839, and again, the majority of them ended up seeing service with the 2nd Regiments of Dragoons in Florida, fighting the Seminoles.

 

[JOHN42768]

I've got a type II. I love these carbines....You can spot these carbines a mile away with that distinctive Hall breech. Here's a detailed summary write-up of the Hall and its development and use.

History: In all, only 2,020 M-1836 Hall carbines were produced, including the Type I, Type II and prototype and experimental carbines. This is one of the few instances where a national armory produced a specific pattern of arm for issue to one specific regiment within the regular army.

Although the M-1836 Hall Carbine patterns are officially a different model than the previously issued M-1833 Hall Carbine, one should understand the history of the M-1833 to appreciate the development of the M-1836, as they were so closely intertwined. The M-1833 Hall was initially adopted for issue to the newly formed 1st Dragoons. Dragoons were to be armed with the most advanced long arm of the day, a breech loading, percussion ignition carbine, which would be easy to handle, load and fire from horseback. The M-1833 was the first breech loading percussion carbine to be adopted by any military in the world, and was the first military percussion long arm to be adopted anywhere, preceding the use of the percussion cap on the M-1841 "Mississippi Rifle" by nearly a decade in the United States. The M-1833 also introduced the "ramrod bayonet", a rather clumsy and worthless design that the American military would continue to use on not only the M-1836, but also resurrecting it in the 1880's for use on Trapdoor rifles and in the early 20th century with the M-1903 rifle.
Initial orders were placed in 1834 for 1028 24-bore (.58) smoothbore carbines with 26 3/16" long barrels and 25 ¼" long ramrod bayonets. The guns were ordered from Simeon North, the only contractor to produce the Hall Patent breech-loading rifle.

The reason the M-1833 carbines were smoothbore was to accommodate buck and ball cartridges, which were considered the most efficient combat load for a long arm. These were the M-1833 "Type I" Carbines, issued to the First Regiment of Dragoons, who put them to good use at various posts throughout the west. The guns also included a covered implement compartment along the toe line of the stock, with a hinged iron door.

Subsequent orders were for the "Type II" M-1833 carbine, which a reduced caliber of .52. These were manufactured between 1836 and 1839 and were initially ordered to arm the 2nd Regiment of Dragoons, which had been organized to help fight the Second Seminole War (1835-1843). Almost immediately, however, there was a hue and cry from within the Ordnance Department regarding these additional arms. North was not considered to be in a position to deliver the carbines with any speed, due to his outstanding orders for Hall Rifles and other small arms. Additionally, a slow down in manufacturing at the Harpers Ferry rifle works (due to lack of rifle orders by the government) was threatening to result in layoffs and terminations from that pool of skilled laborers. Finally there was the long-standing US government policy to arm "regular" Army units only with small arms produced at the National Armories while lesser quality volunteers and state militias would be supplied with arms produced by contractors.

All of these problems and objections were solved by the adoption and ordering of the M-1836 Hall Breech Loading Carbine, which was to be manufactured at the Harpers Ferry rifle works. This would keep the workmen diligently employed, would relieve the pressure on North to deliver the carbines quickly and provide a source for government manufactured arms for the newly formed 2nd Regiment of Dragoons. In order to put the carbine into production as quickly as possible, with a few alterations to existing machinery and to reduce the need to build new machinery and fixtures, some changes were made to the M-1833 design to make it more like the M-1819 rifle that was already being produced at Harpers Ferry. The end result was that the M-1836 carbine closely resembled a shortened M-1819 rifle.

The exterior barrel dimensions remained the same for both the rifle and the carbine, with the exception of length. The carbine was manufactured with a somewhat handier 23" barrel, instead of the longer 26" barrel used on the M-1833. The sliding bayonet was also shortened from 25 ¼" to 22 ¼" in length. The bore of the barrel remained smooth, but the caliber was increased to .64. The rational was that this allowed the use of the service musket ball, which was a .64" round ball, used in the .69 smoothbore M-1816/22/28 series of muskets. Instead of machining a plate, sling bar and ring, a simple eyebolt stud was devised and mounted through the wrist of the carbine to allow attachment of a sling hook. The percussion hammer, which was one of the initial stumbling blocks to production at Harpers Ferry, was manufactured with a hole through its center. This allowed the hammer to be held in a jig during the machining processes. It may also have allowed the using of some of the older flintlock hammer machining jigs and fixtures, as those hammers also had a hole between the neck and jaw.

It is worth noting that the M-1836 was the first percussion arm manufactured at a national arsenal, and as such was a learning experience for the engineers and workmen. The first 1,000 carbines (Type I's) included an implement storage area in the toe line of the butt that had been incorporated on the first M-1833 carbines, and were delivered in 1837, the majority of which were issued almost immediately upon receipt to the 2nd Regiment of Dragoons in Florida.

The M-1836 "Type I" carbines were plagued by the usual problems of gas leakage, etc. that plagued all Hall designs. In 1839, an additional 1,000 M-1836 carbines were ordered from Harpers Ferry. These guns, known as "Type II" Halls, eliminated the implement compartment as an unnecessary, a feature which only increased the time and expense in manufacturing the carbines. Additionally, the slots in the stock that allowed gas to escape from between the stock and receiver were enlarged about 30%, from .13" to .17". This change alone should make it clear that escaping gasses were the bane of the Hall design. The thickness of the barrel was also increased about .05" to strengthen the barrel. These 1,000 carbines were all manufactured and delivered in 1839, and again, the majority of them ended up seeing service with the 2nd Regiments of Dragoons in Florida, fighting the Seminoles.

I see you know your Hall M1836. One other thing worth a mention is that all the inspection was performed by Hall himself, that is why no cartouches appear on the M1836. Do you have R.T. Huntington & Peter A. Schmidt books?

 

[Cpl. Smith]

great gun