Grant Grant v Lee

McClellan had opportunities where he had numerical superiority. He failed to exploit them.
Want to name one? Specifically, want to name one where McClellan's numerical superiority is greater than Grant's numerical superiority as of the end of Spotsylvania?
Even using Young's numbers, given that most of those who were going to muster out hadn't yet mustered out, on that date Grant's force was not less than (120,000 + 34,000 - 4,000 upper limit mustered out - casualties) and Lee's force was not more than (66,000 - casualties), meaning that as of the end of Spotsylvania and using Young's starting point:

​
Start (Young)​
Reinforcements at Spotsylvania​
Wilderness cas​
Spotsylvania cas​
Mustered out (high est)​
Total​
Grant​
120000​
34000​
17700​
18399​
4000​
119013​
​
​
​
​
​
​
​
Lee​
66000​
0​
11000​
12687​
​
42313​


I don't think you can find a single day where McClellan's odds over Lee are that good, even given the Young numbers.
 
I'm not going to get into yet another numbers debate. I'll go with the numbers agreed on by credible historians. That goes for the Overland Campaign, Yorktown, the Seven Days, Antietam, etc.

McClellan had opportunities where he had numerical superiority. He failed to exploit them.
Ah yes "credible historians". Have you ever heard of Confirmation Bias?
 
Ah yes "credible historians". Have you ever heard of Confirmation Bias?

But how exactly do you decide who counts as a credible historian? "Credible" just means "believable", so on the face of it this means "I'll go with the numbers I believe", after all...

So you two never heard of any credible historians who are published and widely respected and well-regarded, by both academia and the general public?

I'm going to stick with those guys. They've earned the trust.
 
So you two never heard of any credible historians who are published and widely respected and well-regarded, by both academia and the general public?
What I'm actually trying to get at is that your definition of "credible historian" is unclear. For example, your source for Union strength in the Overland is an expert on Confederate strength doing an offhand calculation for comparison; what's your source for Union and Confederate strength at Antietam?
 
What I'm actually trying to get at is that your definition of "credible historian" is unclear. For example, your source for Union strength in the Overland is an expert on Confederate strength doing an offhand calculation for comparison; what's your source for Union and Confederate strength at Antietam?
I just gave a description of what I consider that it takes to be a credible historian. I'm done with the thread drift. This thread is about Lee and Grant. My point was that the numbers being presented as fact, are not. They are an interpretation, and should be taken with a grain of salt.
 
The numbers game is easily manipulated and not that interesting.
Lee would have fit in easily with the Roman senatorial families. The system he supported was firmly in place in Russia as late as 1814. However by 1862 it was a dying system which even the Czar abandoned.
Grant was not bound in that way. He did not have to defend slavery, nor justify an ideological position. He only had to use the weapons and tools at hand until he won or was defeated.
Lee did not have to establish himself as an important figure in the US or in the Confederacy when the war broke out. And by 1862, Joe Johnston was severely wounded and A.S. Johnston died of battle wounds. Thereafter Lee had unquestioned supremacy in the Confederate Army.
Grant had to defeat his Confederate enemies, and play the army game to outlast his US enemies too, namely McClellan, Halleck, and Buell. Then Grant had to convince Lincoln to give Grant more leeway. His ability to gradually gain the confidence of the administration so that he got most of his plans approved by August of 1864 is the interesting part of the story.
 
Grant had a very close, loving marriage, and all his children lived to adulthood. Lee's wife became an invalid and I am not sure his daughters approved of his support of the secessionist cause.
Grant the man from the western provinces, became the center of Washington after winning election in 1868. Maybe his vision of a multi ethnic US society is what really causes all of this criticism of his military career.
 
I just gave a description of what I consider that it takes to be a credible historian. I'm done with the thread drift. This thread is about Lee and Grant. My point was that the numbers being presented as fact, are not. They are an interpretation, and should be taken with a grain of salt.
All right, then, here's the facts:


In the final report of the war, the Secretary of War reported at that time the commencement of the Overland Campaign the AoP had 120,384 PFD, exclusive of 9th Corps. Humphreys, the AoP Chief-of-Staff, in his 1883 account disputed this figure and in an appendix the then adjutant-general (Drum) wrote explaining that this was the regulation strength according to the April monthly report, which was made out on 18th July 1864. Drum then wrote that the consolidated morning report for 30th April was on file, which was a document compiled at the time, not months later, and it said:

  • Present for Duty: 102,869
  • Present and on special, extra or daily duty: 19,095
  • Sick: 4,756
  • In arrest or confinement: 931
  • Total Present: 127,471
This would mean the regulation PFD (which includes special/extra/daily duty, but not sick or under arrest) was 121,964, though 120,384 would also be an acceptable number.

9th Army Corps is on the final report and given at 20,780 PFD.

The forces which joined Grant from Washington etc. before he reached the James were given in a statement enumerating 42,469 men. This may or may not be PFD, but it is a low estimate as it misses some known batteries which joined.

The force which joined Grant from Butler's army was given by Smith at the time (absent better information) as 16,000; two of the four divisions were 8,357 PFD on the 10th June monthly return.

67th has already gone into the details of the men mustered out, and how Young's statement for them cannot be correct.

This means that there is evidence suggesting that Grant had at least 120,384 + 20,780 + 42,469 + 16,000 (199,633) as part of his army at at least some point. We could also work with Aggregate Present, in which case:

AotP 127,471 (April 30)
9th Corps 21,357 (April 30)
42,469 men joined as reinforcements (assume AP here)
And Smith's divisions which joined Grant were 9,615 AP on May 31. Assuming the other two divisions were 8,000 AP, we get;

127,471 + 21,357 + 42,469 + 17,615 for 208,912.
The Army of the Potomac in March 1862 (including elements which did not go to the Peninsula) had a strength of 179,362 PFD and 191,171 AP; this return is a regulation return. The conversion factor it produces is that PFD is 93.8% of AP, producing a PFD from the above of 196,000.

Notably, converting the 127,471 AP into PFD with the above factor would give 119,600 PFD. This supports strongly the sense that the main AotP PFD upon crossing the Rapidan was more like 120,000 than 100,000.


Also note that the 42,469 number is smaller than the number Young uses, by almost 6,000... using Young's number pulls the AotP's PFD strength up even higher.


Basically, for the 100,000 number (for regulation PFD) for Grant's AotP on crossing the Rapidan to make sense it would have to be the case that Grant took along something like 20,000 to 25,000 sick at the start of his campaign.




What this means is that there is primary source evidence to the effect that Grant outnumbered Lee heavily, by more than 2:1 at the start of his campaign - and even using Young's numbers, as of the end of Spotsylvania Grant should have outnumbered Lee by nearly 3:1 on the field.

If this is not enough to achieve a decisive victory on the field - fine! But it means that we can't consider anyone else to not measure up to Grant unless they were tested under the same conditions.
 
Grant had a very close, loving marriage, and all his children lived to adulthood. Lee's wife became an invalid and I am not sure his daughters approved of his support of the secessionist cause.
Grant the man from the western provinces, became the center of Washington after winning election in 1868. Maybe his vision of a multi ethnic US society is what really causes all of this criticism of his military career.
You are absolutely right with Grant's greater political challenge and doing him credit for his immense ability to eg. build up confidence towards his plans.
But the points where you compare their personal lives seems a bit curious - where to you want to get to with it?
Besides: as far as I know from reading letters the marriage of the Lees wasn't less affectionate as well as all of their children also lived into adulthood - but I somehow do not get the point why this should be relevant....
 
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Grant had a very close, loving marriage, and all his children lived to adulthood. Lee's wife became an invalid and I am not sure his daughters approved of his support of the secessionist cause.
Grant the man from the western provinces, became the center of Washington after winning election in 1868. Maybe his vision of a multi ethnic US society is what really causes all of this criticism of his military career.
That is another thrilling point. Could you lead me please to where Grant expressed those vision? It's a question of curiosity - I am not trying to repudiate it....
 
Eh? Lee did have superior numbers at the Seven Days...

And it doesn't work that way. You can't just handwave away that the general you think was better had a numerical superiority.
Your estimate of numbers is incorrect. Lee waved the ANV forward and McClellan and Hooker melted before him. It would have been no different in the Wilderness.. Only Grant had the confidence and nerve to experience the worst that Lee could do and not only survive but defeat him.
 
Your estimate of numbers is incorrect.
Really?

By what metric do you assert that, for example, Lee vs McClellan in the Seven Days was not significantly different in terms of numbers to Lee vs Grant in the Wilderness?

Lee in the Seven Days had more regiments, more officers (and was complaining he didn't have enough officers), the units which were subsequently at Second Bull Run had more effectives (on Lee's side) than McClellan had... there simply isn't a metric by which the Seven Days saw Lee with a similar disadvantage as he had at the Wilderness, unless what you do is accept Lost Cause numbers for the Seven Days only.
 
Illinois man that I am I must still admit that at the end of the rebellion the Armies of the James and Potomac, with all new infantry corps commanders since May of 64 (Parke, Humphreys, Wright, Griffin, Gibbon and Weitzel) and Ord commanding the Army of the James, were perhaps the best armies of the war. Add to that their aggressive cavalry and Sheridan as a general *** kicker and kampfgruppe commander. At the end those armies were hard hitting, responsive and fast.
As I have noted before, the imperfections of the AoP was not in the men in the ranks. Unfortunately the changes in corps commanders, did not include Warren.
 
He never had such a disparity in numbers against either man, though.

For example, in terms of the number of men who had been in Grant's army (including those who had become casualties by that date) in the Wilderness-Spotsylvania fighting, Grant had had 176,000 men by the end of Spotsylvania and Lee had had 66,140 (his first reinforcements arriving as he moved away from Spotsylvania). This is a disparity in the Wilderness-Spotsylvania fighting, counting the whole of both armies, of 8:3.
(Both numbers in Union regulation PFD).

Name another general who had 8:3 superiority over Lee in the same manner...
So, you are saying there 176,999 Union troops at Spotsylvania?
 
So, you are saying there 176,999 Union troops at Spotsylvania?
I'm saying that by the end of Spotsylvania 176,999 Union troops PFD had entered Grant's army, though of course by that point tens of thousands of them had left it again (overwhelmingly by becoming casualties).

By the same token, 66,140 Confederate troops PFD had been in Lee's army, though tens of thousands of them had left it again as well (again, by becoming casualties).

The Seven Days are totally different in ratio terms.
 
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As I have noted before, the imperfections of the AoP was not in the men in the ranks. Unfortunately the changes in corps commanders, did not include Warren.

Well, at least Griffin replaced Warren in time to hustle the 5th Corps in the Appomattox Campaign.

Warren reminds me a little of Granger but without Granger's zest for combat. Well, Granger according to Grant and Sherman; they might have given him a bum rap. Sherman, a fine strategist, shifted blame for his incredibly poor tactical failings at Missionary Ridge, where two of Granger's 4th Corps divisions (along with two 14th Corps divisions) carried the ridge.
 
Well, at least Griffin replaced Warren in time to hustle the 5th Corps in the Appomattox Campaign.

Warren reminds me a little of Granger but without Granger's zest for combat. Well, Granger according to Grant and Sherman; they might have given him a bum rap. Sherman, a fine strategist, shifted blame for his incredibly poor tactical failings at Missionary Ridge, where two of Granger's 4th Corps divisions (along with two 14th Corps divisions) carried the ridge.
Bragg's position on Missionary Ridge was protected at each end by a creek that was in a high water stage. On Bragg's left was Chattanooga Creek and on Bragg's right was South Chickamauga Creek. Hooker's divisions bridged their obstacle creek first and Sherman's divisions would have breach their obstacle creek on the following day, if they had needed to.
Granger's divisions attacked the weakest regiments in the Confederate line. Sherman showed up and his divisions had to the most marching.
 
Bragg's position on Missionary Ridge was protected at each end by a creek that was in a high water stage. On Bragg's left was Chattanooga Creek and on Bragg's right was South Chickamauga Creek. Hooker's divisions bridged their obstacle creek first and Sherman's divisions would have breach their obstacle creek on the following day, if they had needed to.
Granger's divisions attacked the weakest regiments in the Confederate line. Sherman showed up and his divisions had to the most marching.
Sherman bungled his approach, got a late start attacking and then attacked in a series of one and two brigade attacks, failing to use the strength he had at hand, which was considerable. Sherman was a good soldier but this was his worst day.

Thomas had four divisions available and used them all in his attack, no screwing around.

I finished David Powell's recent book on Chattanooga yesterday, a good read. He got me thinking about Granger, whom he has some good words for.
 

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