Custer Forrest or Custer

[cash]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here! Forrest's family wasn't uneducated - his wife had a very good education - so he had a good support system, much better than Jackson's. If Jackson hadn't had a rare perseverance and a photographic memory, he wouldn't have made it either. Forrest didn't appreciate education until he got into the war, and was in his 40s, and at that point you're quite right - he couldn't have considered college. At 17, the average age for West Point, he simply wasn't interested and would have turned it down! Or not... He did join a dragoon's outfit to go to Texas for the war (and a large chunk of promised land) at age 20. Maybe a soldier's life would have appealed to him and he would have been a cavalryman anyway...! Ok, I'll stop chasing my tail.

His wife wouldn't have been there to support him. And coming from the frontier with its violent culture, I go back to my original point he would probably have been thrown out for shooting someone or at least thrashing them.

 

[diane]

His wife wouldn't have been there to support him. And coming from the frontier with its violent culture, I go back to my original point he would probably have been thrown out for shooting someone or at least thrashing them.

That's something that puzzles me - a lot of people think that about Forrest's temper. He had one - a big one! - but he rarely started a fight. Didn't have a problem finishing one, but he seldom picked them.

 

[Bee]

That's something that puzzles me - a lot of people think that about Forrest's temper. He had one - a big one! - but he rarely started a fight. Didn't have a problem finishing one, but he seldom picked them.

Therein may lie the problem: how one reacts to a situation in progress

 

[diane]

Therein may lie the problem: how one reacts to a situation in progress

He did well with that! No matter how excited or angry he was, he had the ability to think rapidly and in an orderly manner. Rarely did he act on impulse. Okolona was an exception to the rule but usually he was surprisingly clear.

 

[Bee]

Okolona was an exception to the rule but usually he was surprisingly clear.

Disrupted by the loss of his brother?

 

[diane]

Disrupted by the loss of his brother?

Yes, that was it exactly. He very seldom got himself into a fix like that but that event was pretty traumatic. Jeffrey wasn't just the youngest brother but someone the whole hopes of the family was set on. Forrest had been able to finally put one of his brothers through college and that was Jeffrey.

 

[cash]

That's something that puzzles me - a lot of people think that about Forrest's temper. He had one - a big one! - but he rarely started a fight. Didn't have a problem finishing one, but he seldom picked them.

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/forrest-or-custer.121439/page-10#post-1363879

 

[diane]

Lee never, ever would have tolerated the insubordination. The truth is that Forrest is lucky he wasn't in the Prussian army, because if he had been, he would have been court-martialed and executed on the spot for insubordination.

I reiterate what I've said: armies rely upon discipline. Discipline means that subordinates obey the lawful orders of their superiors. An insubordinate junior--no matter how talented--is useless to an army if he refuses to obey the lawful orders of a superior. This is why I contend that Forrest was largely useless unless in independent command. And then, his independent command was not much more than Mosby on a larger scale.

That's very interesting and I have to agree with much of it. Bragg and Wheeler definitely had cause to punish Forrest for what he said to them, but both decided not to. If he was not valuable, why would they not do this? Bragg, especially, was heavy on discipline. Bragg also transferred some of the brigades Forrest had trained to others, notably Wheeler. If they weren't well trained, he would have left them with Forrest, wouldn't he? Bragg said later that he didn't charge Forrest with anything because he did not consider him a real soldier, which was true enough. He was a civilian volunteer. Perhaps it was because Forrest had strong political connections in Tennessee as well. I can't think of any times where Forrest was actually insubordinate and refused orders with the exception of one Hood sent down the line around the time of Nashville. He wanted all the mule teams less two mules - four instead of six - and Forrest flat refused to do it. As it turned out, he was right and knew Tennessee winters much better than Hood did, but I can't think of any other occasions. He would speak his piece if he didn't agree with an order but did it - Dover, Tupelo are two examples.

 

[diane]

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/forrest-or-custer.121439/page-10#post-1363879

Now, I conceded you might have something with the Hulk but not the others! Again, I'm not saying Forrest was such a genius he could have overcome all the obstacles in his way and beat out Robert E Lee for perfection at West Point, I'm just saying people like him can really surprise everybody when they get their hands on a chance for education.

 

[Reb]

His wife wouldn't have been there to support him. And coming from the frontier with its violent culture, I go back to my original point he would probably have been thrown out for shooting someone or at least thrashing them.

Pure unadulterated speculation.

 

[Reb]

That's very interesting and I have to agree with much of it. Bragg and Wheeler definitely had cause to punish Forrest for what he said to them, but both decided not to. If he was not valuable, why would they not do this? Bragg, especially, was heavy on discipline. Bragg also transferred some of the brigades Forrest had trained to others, notably Wheeler. If they weren't well trained, he would have left them with Forrest, wouldn't he? Bragg said later that he didn't charge Forrest with anything because he did not consider him a real soldier, which was true enough. He was a civilian volunteer. Perhaps it was because Forrest had strong political connections in Tennessee as well. I can't think of any times where Forrest was actually insubordinate and refused orders with the exception of one Hood sent down the line around the time of Nashville. He wanted all the mule teams less two mules - four instead of six - and Forrest flat refused to do it. As it turned out, he was right and knew Tennessee winters much better than Hood did, but I can't think of any other occasions. He would speak his piece if he didn't agree with an order but did it - Dover, Tupelo are two examples.

Bragg didn't discipline Forrest because Forrest was right. Jeff Davis didn't discipline Forrest because Forrest was right. Forrest was right about Hood as well.

 

[Reb]

Lets tabulate the end result. Forrest was appointed Lieutenant General. Bragg was sacked, Hood was sacked. Custer got himself and a whole bunch of others killed.

 

[Eric Wittenberg]

Lets tabulate the end result. Forrest was appointed Lieutenant General. Bragg was sacked, Hood was sacked. Custer got himself and a whole bunch of others killed.

You're an apologist for Forrest. I get it. It's okay.

 

[cash]

Pure unadulterated speculation.

Apparently you don't know what life was like on the frontier.

 

[Reb]

Apparently you don't know what life was like on the frontier.

Where are you from?

You're an apologist for Forrest. I get it. It's okay.

I am a realist.

 

[Reb]

Apparently you don't know what life was like on the frontier.

My family were founders at Jamestown. They moved into North Carolina then on into Tennessee, were founders of Fort Nash. They blazed the trails. Settled in 1810 on Flat Creek, Tennessee, maybe 15 miles from Chapel Hill. Please don't try and tell me that I don't know. Once again sir, where are you from?

 

[Lnwlf]

Stay on topic please.

Posted as Moderator

 

[cash]

***edit by Lnwlf: irrelevant***

Forrest lived on the frontier, in a culture of violence, and that's what formed him. Read his biography.

 

[diane]

Gentlemen, it doesn't matter where anybody was born except Forrest and Custer. Did his immigrant parents have an influence on the general he became? Quite possibly. Did Forrest's being born in a log cabin with the nearest neighbor 35 miles away have an influence on the general he became? Quite possibly.

 

[Lnwlf]

ONE MORE TIME! Return to topic. And as Diane points out, it is irrelevant as to where one is from in this discussion.

Posted as Moderator (again)