Fluted Colt from Dad

[Bonedaddy]

Please post pictures of the serial numbers in different places, the Colt patent information on the cylinder, and a picture of the top of the barrel. Thanks.

 

[UCVRelics]

There are 7 of them, underneath on both sections of frame, trigger guard, backstrap, cylinder, wedge, and inside on cylinder pin.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

A couple of points - the photos of the 1860 in question does not have the early 7-1/2 barrel, but the standard 8 inch barrel. That's not diagnostic of this gun's authenticity, just clarifying a post which might be read to imply that all the fluted 1860s had a short barrel.
Also, all of the 1860s made during the war had that notch / cutout in the frame and also the notch in the buttplate. Both were originally designed to accept the stock attachments. Once there was no "fourth screw" to attach a stock, they were superfluous, but it was easier for Colt to keep their jigs and machines the same rather than stop to rework them.
Also, it could have been that that notch was used to hold the frame in place securely during later machining operations, and if the frame no longer that that notch, some new system of securing the frame for later milling and shaping operations would have been required.
In any event, ALL Civil War era 1860s had that cut out in the frame, whether or not the gun was made to accept a stock.

 

[Peter Stines]

OK...stupid me...what screw are you referring to...where is the gap for the missing screw...it does have a slot for a should stock in the grip

Sorry, my fault. I didn't see the screw at first. My old eyes are deceiving me again. Come to think of it my other body parts deceive me all the time, but I won't go there. You've got a treasure to be sure.

 

[JOHN42768]

You might also see the stamping in the recessed portion of the fluting. Here is mine, note date and shipping location:

 

[Mark A]

There are some very good repops out there and I don't see the Colt Patent marking on the left hand side of the frame. Until he post some better photos to include all the Colt markings and the serial # I'm up in the air on it.


There should still be some remains of the Colt Patent as these are usually pretty crisp.

Were I you I wouldn't be so hasty in queering what appears to be an original weapon simply because you can't see a frame stamping. I own four fluted cylinder Colt M1860's. All are in antique FINE or better condition. Three have thin, shallow, weakly stamped Colt's Patent frame markings. It wouldn't take very much to obliterate these markings. Only one is as you describe (pretty crisp). Lighting and camera angles need to be taken into account.

I've attached some photos so that you won't think that I'm talking out of my backside. If you blow up the photo of four you will notice that you can not discern the Colt's Patent mark on either the top or bottom revolver due to the camera angle. Picture two is the top gun and picture three is the bottom gun. Different camera angle, different result.

Kind Regards
Mark A

 

[UCVRelics]

Were I you I wouldn't be so hasty in queering what appears to be an original weapon simply because you can't see a frame stamping. I own four fluted cylinder Colt M1860's.

Well your not me so until he post some photos that we can see to included the serial# and Colt markings I'm skeptical, been collecting for over 45 years and I have seen a lot of bogus stuff. I have owned many Colts over the years and even ones with a lot of wear you can still see some remains of the Colt Patent as your have.

 

[Lanyard Puller]

All of this prompted me to have a look at my fluted Armies, rather than pack for Baltimore .

I've got more than a few of 'em, all lettered "South", and the condition varies from excellent to very good+. Serial numbers across the range from low 3 digits up into the high 6xxx. No, they didn't stop at 5000.

One never had "Colts Patent" stamped on the frame {the highest numbered one 68xx}, and on 2 it is only a trace of a stamp. The rest are marked as expected.

The original post from @General Butler of his '60 Army photos, looks like the real deal to me, and I think @Mark A, who has the premier collection of revolvers, is spot on.

All is revealed in; The Colt Model 1860. By Charles Pate (which has an excellent section on the Southern shipped guns}.

 

[UCVRelics]

I fell your pain as they cancelled the Alabama Gun Collectors Show next weekend. On the first 5000 I stand corrected. Until I see some better photos to include the serial# I'm still skeptical as I have seen a lot of bogus fluted Colts. In fact I got burned on one about 20 years ago.

 

[Peter Stines]

HMMMM, I dont know I am pretty big and nimble...LOL...for an old guy

I'm one of those "old guys" myself. Make fun of me and I'll throw my tube of Preparation H at you (Just kidding) I'm starting to understand those old veterans with their aches and pains.

 

[General Butler]

The problem I see is that only the first 5000 model 1860 had fluted cylinders and I don't see this on the left side of the frame in front of the trigger. Also does the cylinder have a Colt patent on it as well? It should have the following one line ADDRESS COL. SAML COLT NEW - YORK U. S. AMERICA -. Left frame is marked COLTS / PATENT. Cylinder is marked COLTS PATENT No. (serial number) / PAT. SEPT 10TH 1850
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Lets see here..the barrel has a single line address...Address Col Sam"l Colt New York US America. One of the Flutes says Patented 10th ??? cant read the date

 

[General Butler]

I fell your pain as they cancelled the Alabama Gun Collectors Show next weekend. On the first 5000 I stand corrected. Until I see some better photos to include the serial# I'm still skeptical as I have seen a lot of bogus fluted Colts. In fact I got burned on one about 20 years ago.

here are some shots of the serial numbers and the patent line on the flute...do these help?

 

[General Butler]

Were I you I wouldn't be so hasty in queering what appears to be an original weapon simply because you can't see a frame stamping. I own four fluted cylinder Colt M1860's. All are in antique FINE or better condition. Three have thin, shallow, weakly stamped Colt's Patent frame markings. It wouldn't take very much to obliterate these markings. Only one is as you describe (pretty crisp). Lighting and camera angles need to be taken into account.

I've attached some photos so that you won't think that I'm talking out of my backside. If you blow up the photo of four you will notice that you can not discern the Colt's Patent mark on either the top or bottom revolver due to the camera angle. Picture two is the top gun and picture three is the bottom gun. Different camera angle, different result.

Kind Regards
Mark A

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Thanks...I didnt any Colts Patent on the frame so I took a black Sharpie and wrote it in...Hope thats OK

 

[General Butler]

It's also notched on the frame (both sides of the bottom of the cylinder shield) to receive the shoulder stock. This is a pretty RARE Colt M.1860! They were produced first, and soon replaced by the more familiar style with full (unfluted) cylinder and longer barrel. it probably doesn't have any inspector's cartouches on the grips because it likely wasn't part of a U.S. Government contracted shipment.


I don't believe it's missing because I can SEE it on the left side of the frame! The photo showing the right side looks like there's an empty HOLE there, but I believe it's just the end of the screw.

We'd love to see the rest of your haul too!

So here are the Remington and the Starr...these look mostly good? The Starr does have a wart but is ID's to an Ohio Corp that lost a hand outside Atlanta

 

[UCVRelics]

Thanks...I didnt any Colts Patent on the frame so I took a black Sharpie and wrote it in...Hope thats OK

Thanks for the photos. Thats what I wanted to see and you have a VERY Nice ORIGINAL fluted cylinder Colt. Even though I'm from Alabama I have a little Missouri Show Me State in me.

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

It is a 4 screw. I have had one that had pins instead of a screw for a shoulder stock. ( The shoulder stock was a mistake in my opinion. It was meant to take the place of a carbine, which it did not do.)

Perhaps a mistake in practice....but nothing looks kewler than the Colt Army with shoulder stock.

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

Thanks for the photos. Thats what I wanted to see and you have a VERY Nice ORIGINAL fluted cylinder Colt. Even though I'm from Alabama I have a little Missouri Show Me State in me.

In my limited time as a collector I have seen fakes already. ...sigh.....so I gotta agree with UCV that being skeptical is a good state of mind when collecting anything. UCV isn't giving you a hard time, he is trying to do you a favour.

One more authenticity check please....take a look through the barrel. The rifling should have a progressive twist rate. That is, near the cylinder the twist rate is gentle and as you get closer to the muzzle the twist rate increases quite noticeably. If the twist rate is the same throughout, its a reproduction.

 

[CowCavalry]

I have seen Colt fluted cylinders, and there seems to be no flutes on this specimen. What am I missing?

The flutes...they are present on the cylinder in the photos.

 

[General Butler]

In my limited time as a collector I have seen fakes already. ...sigh.....so I gotta agree with UCV that being skeptical is a good state of mind when collecting anything. UCV isn't giving you a hard time, he is trying to do you a favour.

One more authenticity check please....take a look through the barrel. The rifling should have a progressive twist rate. That is, near the cylinder the twist rate is gentle and as you get closer to the muzzle the twist rate increases quite noticeably. If the twist rate is the same throughout, its a reproduction.

It's all UCV there was never any offense taken. My dad was simply a buyer of civil war stuff he liked, so I hot all kinds of random stuff. Me, i stuck with General Ben Butler items since that day, decades ago when we went to the Butler estate sale. Old Ben isn't anyone es favorite but dang he was I teresting.

 

[byron ed]

The flutes...they are present on the cylinder in the photos.

(yes they are. my problem was first viewing the photos on a phone screen).