Difficult Topics

[Elennsar]

At the end of the day, they were all human. That is the neat thing about reading about ordinary soldiers and why I prefer reading their words than those of the commanders.

But civil wars (and arguably any wars) all too often make people forget that, which is something striking about the ACW.

The Civil War was hardly free of atrocities, but we generally don't see the two armies struggling to out do each other for most atrocious behavior.

 

[UKMarkw]

The closeness of the fighting. Rifles touching rifles as they fired at each other. To look at a figure of a man and shoot him is one thing to look him in the face and shoot him is another

 

[huskerblitz]

But civil wars (and arguably any wars) all too often make people forget that, which is something striking about the ACW.

The Civil War was hardly free of atrocities, but we generally don't see the two armies struggling to out do each other for most atrocious behavior.

Agreed. There will always be instances when things go too far. In the case of the ACW, I think the fact the soldiers could relate specifically with each other helped to prevent even more atrocities. I've read letters by a soldier who couldn't wait to kill as many 'rebs' as he could. But a letter afterward comments on how closely they resembled soldiers in the Revolution. Quite amazing, in my mind.

 

[KansasFreestater]

There's a Reconstruction Forum here, not heavily trafficked. It's hard.

And depressing. And so, so frustrating.
Just like the war itself.
The difference is, we know that "the good guys" won the war, whereas they never managed to really win the peace. You expect atrocities and other awful things in wartime. But you'd like to think that things would get better once the war was over. That the dreams of people like Lincoln were so horribly unfulfilled -- that so many hopeful efforts were aborted -- is almost unbearably tragic. Making it very, very painful to really look at that period.

 

[KansasFreestater]

What? Because you're Native American? I'm not being snarky- would like to know how one, single person here barring Diane would be disconnected from the immigrant's forum. The folks who limped on off the Mayflower on down the centuries- immigrants all. We have unwilling immigrants- hence an entire war.

"unwilling immigrants" -- great way to put it!!

 

[KansasFreestater]

KansasFreestater,

Soldiers are soldiers, no matter where they come from, no matter what country they represent.

The suffering and misery that they share, the common danger and obstacles they endure, make them understand one another far more than the civilian population they protect and spring from.

They are brothers-in-arms, even when those arms are doing their absolute best to kill one another when combat is taking place.

There are so many stories of soldiers telling each other to get back to cover or to hide themselves better when on picket duty so as to not shoot one another for no good reason.

I have read where soldiers from both sides rejoiced when snipers from either side were killed, as the men thought snipers killing soldiers when out getting canteens filled or simply answering 'calls of nature' were completely needless and cruel.

Soldiers know one another instinctively and what they go through as soldiers.

It's not really amazing.

It just is.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

The Christmas truce during WWI....

 

[unionblue]

The Christmas truce during WWI....

KansasFreestater,

GREAT example!

Sincerely,
Unionblue

 

[JPK Huson 1863]

KansasFreestater,

GREAT example!

Sincerely,
Unionblue

Trust Kansas to wade on in there! Ditto.

 

[JPK Huson 1863]

At the end of the day, they were all human. That is the neat thing about reading about ordinary soldiers and why I prefer reading their words than those of the commanders.

As far as the immigrant forum and stuff goes, it's just not an interest to me. Yes, we're all pretty much immigrants (even Natives if you go back far enough) and yes they played an important role. It's just not one that strikes a chord with me. But that's the great thing about the CW is the vast areas of interest it generates. Because people vary in their interests, it gives everyone a richer, deeper understanding that only benefits the whole.

Now that's fair enough- there's just so MUCH. agreed. Pretty cool to have an awful lot of interests here- love that. I'm not at all interested in reading about reenacting, get to enjoy watching them. Have no objection to a forum on it, for instance, how silly. Immigrants are not my main interest either, it intrigues the stuffing out of me when I understand how MANY troops were not even born here. 1/3 of the 20,000 Confederate enlistments in New Orleans alone- and why? Maybe that's what is so interesting, this willingness to immerse themselves 100%, to figure well, whatever it is my new country is all about, I'm IN.

Without in the least gilding the lily safe to say gee whiz- we're lucky Pat Young set up camp here. Like anything else, you can't pick and choose what our History of the war SHOULD consist of- say, R.E. Lee got tired of being pushed around so he had a war, the Yanks sent Sherman to torch the place, The End. Few important elements and revisions I'd like my children to be left with, Pat's extremely helpful with a lot of that.

 

[Pat Answer]

Agreed. There will always be instances when things go too far. In the case of the ACW, I think the fact the soldiers could relate specifically with each other helped to prevent even more atrocities. I've read letters by a soldier who couldn't wait to kill as many 'rebs' as he could. But a letter afterward comments on how closely they resembled soldiers in the Revolution. Quite amazing, in my mind.

This is true - and, conversely, why fighting seemed to be particularly bitter at battles from Milliken's Bend to the Crater where soldiers of different races who didn't or couldn't "relate specifically with each other" met. (Not that the Mule Shoe was a picnic, of course.)
I haven't come across any documented exchanges of tobacco and coffee between USCT and Confederate troops, but it would be very interesting to find one. One of the well-done scenes (IMO) in Gods and Generals is the "Billy" and the "Johnny" meeting in the river after Fredericksburg to just stand there enjoying one brief moment of peace as fellow soldiers...

 

[JPK Huson 1863]

"A Confederate picket shouted to his Union counterparts across the Rappahannock River, "Say, Yanks, there are some fools shooting across the river up above, but we wont shoot if you don't". Such unofficial temporary truces were not uncommon during the Civil War. Despite the brutality of the battlefield, many soldiers felt a certain brotherhood and respect for their enemies. They endured the same long marches, foul weather, and homesickness. Thus, it was not surprising when soldiers, out on the picket line for a week at a time and out of sight of high-ranking officers, sometimes established communications with opposing pickets.

Union soldiers always had an abundance of coffee and sugar, while the Confederate soldiers lacked these supplies but had surplus tobacco. Thus, trades would be established. Newspapers were especially popular to trade, as it was interesting to read the war news from the enemy's standpoint. Although the Rebs had little to trade except tobacco, it was always in demand and could be exchanged for nearly any Union item.

Once relations were established, it was a point of honor that the trust not be broken. Confederate Gen. John B. Gordon tells the story of preparations for the surprise attack on Fort Stedman at Petersburg, VA. During the night Confederate soldiers had advanced into a cornfield between the lines to clear obstructions when they heard a Union picket call, "What are you doing over there, Johnny? Answer quick, or I'll shoot." A quick-thinking Rebel answered, "Never mind, Yank! Lie down and go to sleep. We are just gathering a little corn."

The preparations for the surprise assault being completed, General Gordon ordered that the signal gun be fired to start the charge. The soldier raised his gun but hesitated to fire. His sense of honor and fair play caused him to shout:"Hello, Yank! Wake up. Look out, we are coming!" He then fired the signal and the assault began.

Fascinating Fact: When stationed at Fredricksburg in the winter of 1862, pickets across the Rappahannock River from each other made little sailboats that they floated back and forth with items to trade. "
http://civilwar.bluegrass.net/SoldiersLife/unofficialtruces.html

Just love these. Oh my.

 

[Elennsar]

Things like that make me hope for humanity.

 

[Billy Yank]

No position is "impregnable" . The best that can be done is to delay or reroute your enemy until a strategic advantage can be made. Its the first rule of fortifications.

I would say a position is impregnable if the attacking force is inadequate. Your supposition assumes unlimited attacking capabilities. All a defender has to do is understand the limitations of his attacker and fortify his position accordingly which assumes he has that capability.

As a kid, I used to build impregnable snowforts, for example, because the kids who attacked me with snowballs were weanies and inadequately equipped.

 

[cash]

This kind of diverges from the topic, since I wouldn't call it a taboo subject here, but in the "impossible to wrap your head around" category, I would put the Overland Campaign of spring 1864. The contrasts are mind-blowing. Here you had pickets from both sides trading tobacco, coffee, newspapers, etc., chatting and joking back and forth.... only days after the unfathomable mano-a-mano manic/maniacal bayonet butchery of the Bloody Angle.

Not only that, but think of Cold Harbor. After the June 3 assault the two sides were still firing at each other, trying to pick off anyone who showed their heads above a rifle pit, then all of a sudden there's a flag of truce and they're out in the middle of the field shaking hands, talking and joking with each other, and trading coffee for tobacco. Then the white flag gets put away and they're back firing at each other.

 

[cash]

But it is impressive is how all the bitterness and anger and frustration that started the war failed to poison that well of human empathy.

Clearly, Johnny Reb and Billy Yank had no time for trolls.

Recent scholarship casts doubt on that.

 

[cash]

"We made no distinction between our own and the confederate wounded [at Gettysburg], but treated them both alike, and although we had been engaged in fierce and deadly combat all day and weary and all begrimed with smoke and powder and dust, many of us went around among the wounded and gave cooling water or hot coffee to drink. The confederates were surprised and so expressed themselves that they received such kind treatment at our hands, and some of the slightly wounded were glad they were wounded and our prisoners."

--US Corporal Horatio D. Chapman, from his Civil War Diary of a 49er, 1929.

Unionblue

There was a definite distinction in how the dead were treated. The Union dead were buried first while the confederate dead were left above ground to wait until all the Union dead had been taken care of.

 

[cash]

I haven't come across any documented exchanges of tobacco and coffee between USCT and Confederate troops, but it would be very interesting to find one.

I don't think you'll ever find one.

 

[Billy Yank]

But it is impressive is how all the bitterness and anger and frustration that started the war failed to poison that well of human empathy.

Clearly, Johnny Reb and Billy Yank had no time for trolls.

"And after all the violence and the double talk
There's just a song in all the trouble and the strife
You do the walk, you do the walk of life."

"Walk of Life" by Dire Straits

 

[Elennsar]

Recent scholarship casts doubt on that.

Do you have a particular source in mind?

 

[cash]

Do you have a particular source in mind?

Caroline Janney has done some work on the veterans after the war and the animosity that still pervaded many of them.