Lee Deification of Robert E Lee

[Martini-Henry]

With regards to Ireland, 'We blamed him for killing the ordinary men, women and children of Ireland. But only two individuals from 1649 and for the next 11 years make that allegation, and those two are unreliable. It didn't happen."

Maybe,maybe, mate. But you mention Cromwell anywhere in Ireland & they go ape. Memories run deep there.

 

[Schwallanscher]

Maybe,maybe, mate. But you mention Cromwell anywhere in Ireland & they go ape. Memories run deep there.

didn't the irish guards have cromwells in wwII? that's a serious question.

 

[Northern Light]

I'm sure that King Charles 1 felt the same way.

Well, Charlie had his own issues to deal with.

 

[Martini-Henry]

A tank which was supposed to be the equal of the panzer 3, trouble was the chassis of Panzer 3's were being used for self-propelled guns, the Wehrmacht using by that time Panzer 4's, Panthers & Tigers. The Cromwell Tank came into service too late.

 

[Northern Light]

didn't the irish guards have cromwells in wwII? that's a serious question.

What were they? Flamethrowers? Big Berthas?

 

[Waterloo50]

didn't the irish guards have cromwells in wwII? that's a serious question.

That would be the 2nd Armoured Battalion Irish Guards, they had the old Covenanter tanks plus the M4 and later the Firefly. The Welsh 2nd used Cromwell's but mostly in a scouting role, they weren't much good for anything else.

 

[Schwallanscher]

cruiser tanks - big berthas were big mortars of wwI vintage

 

[Schwallanscher]

That would be the 2nd Armoured Battalion Irish Guards, they had the old Covenanter tanks plus the M4 and later the Firefly.

any idea whether they weren't issued cromwells on purpose, well let's say, to avoid a mutiny?

 

[Northern Light]

cruiser tanks - big berthas were big mortars of wwI vintage

I know, that was my weak attempt at humour.

 

[Waterloo50]

any idea whether they weren't issued cromwells on purpose, well let's say, to avoid a mutiny?

That would be a good enough reason.

 

[Martini-Henry]

a

any idea whether they weren't issued cromwells on purpose, well let's say, to avoid a mutiny?

Possibly it was the best of an extremely poor bunch of British Tank Designs.

 

[Waterloo50]

That would be a good enough reason.

Irish guards Covenanter.

 

[Waterloo50]

Possibly it was the best of an extremely poor bunch of British Tank Designs.

A bit like the Tommy Cooker.

 

[Martini-Henry]

Ah yes the ubiquitous Sherman. FDR sent some to Russia & they were regarded as inferior to the T34.

 

[diane]

I've read this many times and still find it ambiguous:

'There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race. While my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more deeply engaged for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, physically, and socially. The painful discipline they are undergoing is necessary for their further instruction as a race, and will prepare them, I hope, for better things. How long their servitude may be necessary is known and ordered by a merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild and melting influences of Christianity than from the storm and tempest of fiery controversy.'
R. E Lee.

Its like Lee is saying that Slavery is wrong but it is also a necessary evil. That the 'blacks' are suffering but its for their own good. That their servitude will end but only when a merciful providence decides and that complaining/protesting about slavery will not bring it to an end, only the kindness and influence of Christianity will do that.

That's deep man.

The irony there was that the blacks were more Christian than the whites, who were better off here than in Europe, and who ended up suffering for their own good for a hundred years after slavery. It was Jefferson's wolf by the ears, and why that was a problem - you had to admit it was a wolf.

I don't know how far you can fault someone for following the mores of their class - and the South was really evolving a regular feudal system like the one their ancestors left - but when it's clear they know better it's a little harder to let them off the hook. Lincoln spit it out - it's not so much good for you to be a slave but good for me you're a slave! Translated for Lee: the old man says in his will you're free but, doggone it, it also said I had to get the place out of debt and I can't afford to pay anybody anything...sorry, you'll have to wait! But if you think Lee had problems with slavery, you ought to have heard his wife who had no problem whatsoever. Free them? You don't leave puppies out in the woods, do you? They'd be just fine if those abolitionists would quit riling them up! (Blacks don't have a single thought in their heads until a white puts one there...)

I sometimes wonder at this problem Lee had about hanging onto Jefferson's wolf and rationalizing the 'peculiar institution' then finally tossing the ball to God - your call, I don't know! Someone like Forrest didn't worry about it and didn't have a wolf by the ears. It's legal, it's where the money is, you do this and I'll do that - business is business. He didn't drag God into it! However, he didn't have generations of families that had been owned by generations of his family. I think that close, very long term relationship had a lot to do with Lee's conflict about slaves.

 

[Waterloo50]

The irony there was that the blacks were more Christian than the whites, who were better off here than in Europe, and who ended up suffering for their own good for a hundred years after slavery. It was Jefferson's wolf by the ears, and why that was a problem - you had to admit it was a wolf.

I don't know how far you can fault someone for following the mores of their class - and the South was really evolving a regular feudal system like the one their ancestors left - but when it's clear they know better it's a little harder to let them off the hook. Lincoln spit it out - it's not so much good for you to be a slave but good for me you're a slave! Translated for Lee: the old man says in his will you're free but, doggone it, it also said I had to get the place out of debt and I can't afford to pay anybody anything...sorry, you'll have to wait! But if you think Lee had problems with slavery, you ought to have heard his wife who had no problem whatsoever. Free them? You don't leave puppies out in the woods, do you? They'd be just fine if those abolitionists would quit riling them up! (Blacks don't have a single thought in their heads until a white puts one there...)

I sometimes wonder at this problem Lee had about hanging onto Jefferson's wolf and rationalizing the 'peculiar institution' then finally tossing the ball to God - your call, I don't know! Someone like Forrest didn't worry about it and didn't have a wolf by the ears. It's legal, it's where the money is, you do this and I'll do that - business is business. He didn't drag God into it! However, he didn't have generations of families that had been owned by generations of his family. I think that close, very long term relationship had a lot to do with Lee's conflict about slaves.

So in some respects Lee was walking a tightrope, perhaps that is why its difficult to really understand his views on slavery. Slavery served a purpose and although Lee viewed it as an evil he was benefiting from it. At least he was able to take a step back and say that divine intervention would sort it all out, that's a bit of a cop out really, I think its wrong but god knows best.....would that be a fair summary?

 

[KeyserSoze]

Think he means as a result of Lee receiving no demerits

He was one of two or three in his class who received no demerits.

 

[diane]

So in some respects Lee was walking a tightrope, perhaps that is why its difficult to really understand his views on slavery. Slavery served a purpose and although Lee viewed it as an evil he was benefiting from it. At least he was able to take a step back and say that divine intervention would sort it all out, that's a bit of a cop out really, I think its wrong but god knows best.....would that be a fair summary?

Pretty much! I also don't see this as a fault in Lee, but rather more virtuous than it might seem - at least he was thinking about it, and the hypocrisy of beating the war drums to keep people slaves when his own father had helped lead a rebellion for freedom, Virginia as the leader of liberty and second only to SC for slaves... A lot of the fire eaters didn't even think about it! Of course we'll go to war for this state right - the others appear to be negotiable - because you're taking the bread out of our mouths. Lee, however much they censored it in the South, read Lincoln's speeches and it did get him to thinking about the matter.

 

[Northern Light]

So in some respects Lee was walking a tightrope, perhaps that is why its difficult to really understand his views on slavery. Slavery served a purpose and although Lee viewed it as an evil he was benefiting from it. At least he was able to take a step back and say that divine intervention would sort it all out, that's a bit of a cop out really, I think its wrong but god knows best.....would that be a fair summary?

Well, if you want to use that"blame it all on God" philosophy, I guess God told the South what He thought of their "peculiar institution". Seems like the South just didn't like what God told them.

 

[Reb]

I know, that was my weak attempt at humour.

I just love how our neighbor's across the pond waste vowels. May I ask what the purpose for the extra "U" in the perfectly functional word "humor" is for?