Confederate War Aims

[Desert Kid]

The North had one concept of equal rights which limited free blacks. along with Irish and Jews. The South equal rights were to just to whites with the aristocracy having addional and , slave zero.. As to equal that has always be a word that has been interpreted according to the courts. in different periods of this country's history each with a different interpretation. What is equal? DO not forget the Ladies.! as Abigale Adams wrote John. Now that is a struggle for equal rights!

Kinda funny to read this, to see that not only English/Scots-Irish whites, but also Creoles, Tejano Hispanics, partially native Hispanics, Cajuns and Native Americans had skin in the game too in the South.

 

[John S. Carter]

Kinda funny to read this, to see that not only English/Scots-Irish whites, but also Creoles, Tejano Hispanics, partially native Hispanics, Cajuns and Native Americans had skin in the game too in the South.!

 

[John S. Carter]

These people had skin in the game in the North and West not just the South ?But let us return to the issue of war aims

 

[lurid]

Southerners seceded because they thought the racist Lincoln was going to force miscegenation on them?

I don't think Lincoln had to force that on the south, they just up and did it on their own

 

[Desert Kid]

These people had skin in the game in the North and West not just the South ?But let us return to the issue of war aims

It wasn't just whites who participated in the racial chaste system.

 

[leftyhunter]

Cotton was as close to specie as you could get. The reason for the embargo, Keeping the South from shipping Cotton. Lincoln tried to procure all the Cotton he could get. Traded the Confederacy for arms and food. Took the Cotton and sold some of it to England for Gold. Used the Gold to pay the coupon on Yankee Bonds. Also Confederacy had a 5 million bond backed by Cotton.

The North was never going to allow the Cotton States to Direct Trade with England. Prime reason they wouldn't let their Economy Secede.

Yankees had a unique solution to miscegenation. Have a exclusive Lilly White society. Yankees ran off, sold South and Excluded Blacks. Fought a Race War to get rid of Native Americans. Eventually Banned Asians. All threats to thier Exclusive **** Society.

I would like to see a source on Lincoln trading cotton for arms that in of itself would of led to impeachment. It would be very difficult to keep that a secret. Either a state has miscegenation laws or they don't. The fact that Southern states did not voluntarily repeal them speaks volumes.
Again no contemporary Southern politican or civic society had no issue with racism against other non white groups.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

Cotton was as close to specie as you could get. The reason for the embargo, Keeping the South from shipping Cotton. Lincoln tried to procure all the Cotton he could get. Traded the Confederacy for arms and food. Took the Cotton and sold some of it to England for Gold. Used the Gold to pay the coupon on Yankee Bonds. Also Confederacy had a 5 million bond backed by Cotton.

The North was never going to allow the Cotton States to Direct Trade with England. Prime reason they wouldn't let their Economy Secede.

Yankees had a unique solution to miscegenation. Have a exclusive Lilly White society. Yankees ran off, sold South and Excluded Blacks. Fought a Race War to get rid of Native Americans. Eventually Banned Asians. All threats to thier Exclusive **** Society.

I would like to see a source on Lincoln trading cotton for arms that in of itself would of led to impeachment. It would be very difficult to keep that a secret. Either a state has miscegenation laws or they don't. The fact that Southern states did not voluntarily repeal them speaks volumes.
Again no contemporary Southern politican or civic society had no issue with racism against other non white groups.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

Cotton was as close to specie as you could get. The reason for the embargo, Keeping the South from shipping Cotton. Lincoln tried to procure all the Cotton he could get. Traded the Confederacy for arms and food. Took the Cotton and sold some of it to England for Gold. Used the Gold to pay the coupon on Yankee Bonds. Also Confederacy had a 5 million bond backed by Cotton.

The North was never going to allow the Cotton States to Direct Trade with England. Prime reason they wouldn't let their Economy Secede.

Yankees had a unique solution to miscegenation. Have a exclusive Lilly White society. Yankees ran off, sold South and Excluded Blacks. Fought a Race War to get rid of Native Americans. Eventually Banned Asians. All threats to thier Exclusive **** Society.

I would like to see a source on Lincoln trading cotton for arms that in of itself would of led to impeachment. It would be very difficult to keep that a secret. Either a state has miscegenation laws or they don't. The fact that Southern states did not voluntarily repeal them speaks volumes.
Again no contemporary Southern politican or civic society had no issue with racism against other non white groups.
Leftyhunter

 

[th'anchoriticsybarite]

I would say that the southern rebels had deluded themselves more than they were sure of their righteousness. Just like many plantation families had deluded themselves into believing their slaves loved them and then were shocked and angry when the slaves told the Union forces were the valuables were.

President Jackson's Proclamation Regarding Nullification, December 10, 1832 | American Battlefield Trust (battlefields.org)

A President had warned a southern state just 30 years prior what would happen if a state attempted secession. Then prior to the firing on Sumter seven northern state legislatures sent to congress resolutions condemning secession as unconstitutional/treasonous and pledging their state's resources to fight it. The rebels had to know of this.

Joint Resolutions of Indiana State Legislature. (civilwarcauses.org)
State of Maine (civilwarcauses.org)
Resolutions of the Legislature of the State of Minnesota, (civilwarcauses.org)
New Jersey Resolutions (civilwarcauses.org)
New York Resolutions (civilwarcauses.org)
Ohio Resolutions (civilwarcauses.org)
Resolutions of Pennsylvania (civilwarcauses.org)

Thank you for bringing Jackson into the conversation. I've always believed that he more than any other man/president guaranteed the continuation of the Union. And I'm not denigrating Lincoln, but Jackson's forceful smackdown of South Carolina bought time for the North to become an industrial powerhouse. Time for the huge flood of immigrants to swell the population of the North (and therefore the size of its armies)

 

[th'anchoriticsybarite]

Agreed that much of northern opposition to slavery was not because they espoused civil rights for African Americans but rather because the free soil movement argued that a slave society depressed wages and opportunities for white men. That being said, I would never claim that the south was "more progressive" when it came to race. Both north and south were guilty in their treatment of the Black population with the difference being the additional oppressive burden of slavery that existed in the states in which it was still lawful.

Sometimes you just have to accept that a spade is just a digging instrument. I believe that when the Abolition movement began in the North it was what its stated goal was--the institution of slavery was a moral wrong and should not be permitted to expand nor even to continue.

Northern opposition to slavery arose from a section of the country where there were few or no slaves in competition with blue collar working men. In the South where there was miniscule opposition to slavery, there were practically no jobs for freed slaves to compete for. Especially given that they would have had zero experience necessary to compete in the job market for factory work.

 

[th'anchoriticsybarite]

The South would not wait for the these territories to become states in order that the North become stronger and therefore have greater political control in Congress. There was also the thought that these states were not suitable for agriculture. That was the reason that the South had filibusters sent to the Caribbean to attempt to possible annex those islands and even Mexico. Those islands were suitable for the plantation system. How close they came would be interesting to know. This was no different than Northeast desiring to move into Canada .How many attempts were made ? The political leaders were fearful,with the attitude of the North and West becoming more hostel towards the slavery and the South generally , that to wait would risk their own way of life with NORTH assuming the mantel of authority in Washington. Then there was the fact that the emotions of the people over years of feelings of hostility that the North had expressed towards the South's particular life style and with the election of "that Black Republican" this would be the ideal time. Secession was their political banner that they would carry believing that they had the authority to bring their states to this act, and convincing the states they dd .

To quote Nancy Reagan's advice, all the South had to do was say NO. Just notice how states had been added before the CW--in pairs (one free, one slave). Had they simply adhered to that simple rule, today in 2021 California might still be a territory with a population greater than all states west of the Mississippi.

I'm sure you know about the Monroe Doctrine, telling the European nations to keep their hands off the Western Hemisphere. What you may not know is that the US had as much chance of enforcing that puff of hot air as I do of winning the heavy weight boxing championship. The British Navy accomplished that chore. Britain was satisfied with the status quo and as long as none of its European competitors, especially France improved their standing/holdings live and let live. Had the Spanish-American war occurred in the 1820's, 30', 40's, 50's, 60's you can rest assured that when talk began of annexing Cuba and/or Puerto Rico the Royal Navy would have ended the discussion post haste.

As a matter of fact the success rate of the filibusters was near zero attests to the mere presence of the Royal Navy and its influence in spurring the US government to stop those expeditions before the US could be put in the position of being humiliatingly slapped down.

 

[uaskme]

I would like to see a source on Lincoln trading cotton for arms that in of itself would of led to impeachment. It would be very difficult to keep that a secret. Either a state has miscegenation laws or they don't. The fact that Southern states did not voluntarily repeal them speaks volumes.
Again no contemporary Southern politican or civic society had no issue with racism against other non white groups.
Leftyhunter

Never heard of a War fought over actions in the Bed Room.

Negrophobic Yankees were just as concerned about miscegenation. They wanted NO Blacks in the Territories. Can't have sex with them if they aren't there. Speaks Volume. Wanted those left for White Families. However, I don't think Yankee invasion was over Sex. Nor that Sex was a Confederate War Aim.

Trading With the Enemy by Philip Leigh.

 

[CSA Today]

I don't think Lincoln had to force that on the south, they just up and did it on their own

As did the North and West.

"The same popular pressures that forced political parties to embrace the doctrine of **** demanded and sanctioned the social and economic repression of the Negro population. Racial segregation or exclusion thus haunted the northern Negro in his attempts to use public conveyances, to attend schools, or to sit in theaters, churches, and lecture halls. But even the more subtle forms of twentieth-century racial discrimination had their antecedents in the anti bellum North: residential restrictions, exclusion from resorts and certain restaurants, confinement to menial employments, and restricted cemeteries. The justification for such discrimination in the North differed little from that used to defend slavery in the South: Negroes, it was held, constituted a depraved and inferior race which must be kept in its proper place in a white man's society."

Leon Litwack's North Of Slavery, Preface, p. viii.

 

[lurid]

As did the North and West.

"The same popular pressures that forced political parties to embrace the doctrine of **** demanded and sanctioned the social and economic repression of the Negro population. Racial segregation or exclusion thus haunted the northern Negro in his attempts to use public conveyances, to attend schools, or to sit in theaters, churches, and lecture halls. But even the more subtle forms of twentieth-century racial discrimination had their antecedents in the anti bellum North: residential restrictions, exclusion from resorts and certain restaurants, confinement to menial employments, and restricted cemeteries. The justification for such discrimination in the North differed little from that used to defend slavery in the South: Negroes, it was held, constituted a depraved and inferior race which must be kept in its proper place in a white man's society."

Leon Litwack's North Of Slavery, Preface, p. viii.

Dude, I was trying to joke around with you, but I guess you don't have a sense of humor or you just missed the punchline? I lived in both parts of the country and I can give you a much better explanation than Leon Litwack.

First, we can both agree that all we do is talk about white racism and neglect to talk about black racism, which I personally believe blacks are more racist than whites no matter where you go in this country. It seems to me that black racism is taboo or the reasoning behind it is all some white guilt excuses that justifies it all. Not in my world. Racism is racism no matter what race initiates it.

I agree with Litwack that northerners thought/think black's are an inferior race(I think that's what you wrote), especially intellectually and morally. After living in the south I noticed that the hatred between the races stems from being too much alike. If you threw a blanket over all southerners (some whites did) you wouldn't be able tell them apart. They have the same accent, demeanor, attitude, pride and the same overall view on how they deal with life. This is just my opinion...

 

[John S. Carter]

As did the North and West.

"The same popular pressures that forced political parties to embrace the doctrine of **** demanded and sanctioned the social and economic repression of the Negro population. Racial segregation or exclusion thus haunted the northern Negro in his attempts to use public conveyances, to attend schools, or to sit in theaters, churches, and lecture halls. But even the more subtle forms of twentieth-century racial discrimination had their antecedents in the anti bellum North: residential restrictions, exclusion from resorts and certain restaurants, confinement to menial employments, and restricted cemeteries. The justification for such discrimination in the North differed little from that used to defend slavery in the South: Negroes, it was held, constituted a depraved and inferior race which must be kept in its proper place in a white man's society."

Leon Litwack's North Of Slavery, Preface, p. viii.

The fact is that the media/print media, in both North and South were successful in the propaganda of news which aided in the hostility in the Union. They were totally ignorant of the effects of the news ? which they were publishing. The printed word is the most successful means to bring on the effect on people, when they can not be reached by the spoken. The papers and books were the same methods that have been used since the foundation of this country .As to Confederate war aims, according to Confederate press simply separation from the domination of North which could only be achieved by the declaration of independence as their forefathers had from Britain .Then as events happened, economical ,and military losses, these same presses attacked the administration. Interesting is it not? As to **** and discrimination ,yes ,that was a horrible time in the history of this nation .But this nation as matured and though trial and tribulations we have developed a better understanding of other people civil rights as human beings. The nation went thought a civil war where thousands died and years of tribulation to achieve this maturity. But we do not inherit the sins of our ancestors .I notice that you state "was held" past tense ,no longer held.

 

[atlantis]

Creating a military industrial complex was one aim of the war. This a war aim that enables the ability of the rebel power to achieve its political aim of independence.

 

[GwilymT]

Creating a military industrial complex was one aim of the war. This a war aim that enables the ability of the rebel power to achieve its political aim of independence.

I don't think this was an aim, but rather a result. People weren't saying they needed to go to war to build a large army and spur industry. The building of large armies and the spurring of industry was a necessary result of going to war, not really an aim or a cause.

 

[leftyhunter]

Never heard of a War fought over actions in the Bed Room.

Negrophobic Yankees were just as concerned about miscegenation. They wanted NO Blacks in the Territories. Can't have sex with them if they aren't there. Speaks Volume. Wanted those left for White Families. However, I don't think Yankee invasion was over Sex. Nor that Sex was a Confederate War Aim.

Trading With the Enemy by Philip Leigh.

Preserving racial purity was cited by Secessionists has a reason for Secession.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

Never heard of a War fought over actions in the Bed Room.

Negrophobic Yankees were just as concerned about miscegenation. They wanted NO Blacks in the Territories. Can't have sex with them if they aren't there. Speaks Volume. Wanted those left for White Families. However, I don't think Yankee invasion was over Sex. Nor that Sex was a Confederate War Aim.

Trading With the Enemy by Philip Leigh.

Preserving racial purity was cited by Secessionists has a reason for Secession.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

Never heard of a War fought over actions in the Bed Room.

Negrophobic Yankees were just as concerned about miscegenation. They wanted NO Blacks in the Territories. Can't have sex with them if they aren't there. Speaks Volume. Wanted those left for White Families. However, I don't think Yankee invasion was over Sex. Nor that Sex was a Confederate War Aim.

Trading With the Enemy by Philip Leigh.

Preserving racial purity was cited by Secessionists has a reason for Secession. Obviously Southern states took the issue if Miscegenation very seriously because no Southern state voluntarily repealed it's Miscegenation Laws.
Leftyhunter
Leftyhunter