Confederacy P53?

[Steveoko922]

I managed to flush out an Enfield rifle from a local collection and was excited to see some marking that may indicate usage in the Civil War. What do I have here? Or is it just a average commercial P53? The "2" stamp and the "WD" on the wrist are very puzzling.

 

[Steveoko922]

.

 

[UCVRelics]

Interesting Enfield. looks like we need our Enfield experts. Paging @Craig L Barry and @Lanyard Puller

 

[bayonet]

My understanding is the WD means War Department that were meant for the British Army and never made it over here. For your sake I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Grayrock Volunteer]

The "2" looks like it was carved or scratched with a penknife as opposed to being stamped. The "WD" stamp isn't an Ordnance acceptance mark and is likely related to the stocker or a subinspector. The barrel has commerical Birmingham proofs which is consistent with the lock markings and further indicates this was not a British Government piece.

 

[johan_steele]

It's lacks the distinctive broad arrow of British military service. You have a standard commercial P53. Nothing to scoff at to have in any collection.

 

[UCVRelics]

I learned a long time ago when it comes to Enfields, Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. Craig and LP will have the 411.

 

[Grayrock Volunteer]

There are also no markings shown that indicate it was Confederate purchased or used.

 

[bayonet]

The "2" looks like it was carved or scratched with a penknife as opposed to being stamped. The "WD" stamp isn't an Ordnance acceptance mark and is likely related to the stocker or a subinspector. The barrel has commerical Birmingham proofs which is consistent with the lock markings and further indicates this was not a British Government piece.

If it was made in Birmingham would thet still use parts made in London? The SIDDONS name on the back of the lockplate had his shop in London apparently.

 

[Grayrock Volunteer]

If it was made in Birmingham would thet still use parts made in London? The SIDDONS name on the back of the lockplate had his shop in London apparently.

I don't suppose wouldn't be impossible for a London made part, especially a small part, to show up on a Birmingham gun, but I wouldn't generally expect it. However, from what I understand Siddons & Sons was located at 16 St. Mary's Row & Whittall Street in the Birmingham Gun Quarter during the war.

 

[bayonet]

I don't suppose wouldn't be impossible for a London made part, especially a small part, to show up on a Birmingham gun, but I wouldn't generally expect it. However, from what I understand Siddons & Sons was located at 16 St. Mary's Row & Whittall Street in the Birmingham Gun Quarter during the war.

Interesting because Merwyn Carey has his Shop listed in London making Percussion Rifles about 1840 onwards.
Also has him creating a Blisset Patent, any idea what that is?

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

There are also no markings shown that indicate it was Confederate purchased or used.

I agree that this is a standard sort of civilian Model 1853, not made for the British army, and it has no markings that tell where it was sold or to whom it was sold.
You will find folks who tell you those hash marks on the barrel, bottom of guard, etc. are confederate marks, showing it was rebuilt in the South.
Not true.
These sort of marks are found on most arms that required hand fitting so that the fitted parts could be kept together. It is true that arms converted or repaired by southern gunsmiths may be so marked - but that's true for arms taken apart by gunsmiths north or south!
Look on the bottom of the stock closer to the mark you show and see if you see a name stamped there...most Birmingham arms will be marked there with the name of the actual maker.

 

[bayonet]

I agree that this is a standard sort of civilian Model 1853, not made for the British army, and it has no markings that tell where it was sold or to whom it was sold.
You will find folks who tell you those hash marks on the barrel, bottom of guard, etc. are confederate marks, showing it was rebuilt in the South.
Not true.
These sort of marks are found on most arms that required hand fitting so that the fitted parts could be kept together. It is true that arms converted or repaired by southern gunsmiths may be so marked - but that's true for arms taken apart by gunsmiths north or south!
Look on the bottom of the stock closer to the mark you show and see if you see a name stamped there...most Birmingham arms will be marked there with the name of the actual maker.

Yes even if you disassemble the earlier Brit Brown Bess's you will see those Roman Numeral marks on many of the parts. There called Musket Assembly Numbers.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Yes even if you disassemble the earlier Brit Brown Bess's you will see those Roman Numeral marks on many of the parts. There called Musket Assembly Numbers.

Yes, as Lanyard Puller once explained, they could be marked with a single screwdriver blade, no need for a set of number stamps.

 

[ResearchPress]

Interesting because Merwyn Carey has his Shop listed in London making Percussion Rifles about 1840 onwards.
Also has him creating a Blisset Patent, any idea what that is?

The gun lock makers (William) Siddons & Sons were, and as posted by 'Grayrock Volunteer' above, in Birmingham 1855 - 1864 ('British Gunlock Makers' by Tony Gibbs-Murray). All the references to Siddons that I have are Birmingham. Outside of Carey's book, I haven't found a reference to Siddons gunmaker in London (there was though James Sidden c1802).

John Blissett had a patent in 1855 relating to revolving chamber firearms. Not found any others

David

 

[Steveoko922]

What's a rifle like this worth? I'm looking to sell it.

 

[Old Soldier]

This is a typical civilian rifle musket buit to P1853 specification. The XIIII is the assemblers mark made with a chisel/turnscrew to identify the parts as his rifle (and his bonus - or not, if it wasn't up to standard!). It is Birmingham proofed and was started and finished as a .577 (25-bore). Any 24s indicate a barrel made or converted to .58 (Union standard). The WD without the arrow is the stock maker or inspector. The WD with arrow is a government acceptance stamp and would not appear on a rifle sent abroad to the Confederacy. The only ones that were carried the opposed arrows -X- (sold out of service) and were usually type 2s (spring retained bands) and would bear a civilian proof. Confederate examples often bear an acceptance stamp below the trigger guard tang - a common one is 'anchor over JS', but this is not always so.

BTW - Lockmakers = it was common practice for a Birmingham gunmaker to have a London shop. VERY confusing.

 

[Conquerordie]

Is that a Baddeley band at the rear, and Palmer style for the two front bands? Can't really tell from the pics?

 

[Steveoko922]

No they are all Palmer style band

 

[bayonet]

What's a rifle like this worth? I'm looking to sell it.

Don't take less than $1500 if the odds are in your favor over $2000