Civil War Brogans

[Billw12280]

The following are purported to be Confederate Brogans, the pair with the hobnails were found in Hanover, PA and there has been some speculation that they belonged to a cavalryman, due to the removal of nails where stirrups would rest. They were found with a forked tongue buckle in an old estate. The other pair was from the Richmond Depot and match a known pair from that facility.

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Those are really amazing! Thanks again for sharing.

 

[Si Klegg]

The following are purported to be Confederate Brogans, the pair with the hobnails were found in Hanover, PA and there has been some speculation that they belonged to a cavalryman, due to the removal of nails where stirrups would rest. They were found with a forked tongue buckle in an old estate. The other pair was from the Richmond Depot and match a known pair from that facility.

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I'm surprised there was enough iron left in the Confederacy for cannon with the amount of hobnails on those boots! If all the Confed Cavalry had boots like that ...

 

[Billw12280]

Having Dave look at them is a great idea, was there a return guarantee?

@Package4 and @Si Klegg I emailed pictures to Dave Taylor and he shares your opinion on these shoes. I have requested a return explaining the situation to the seller but I have not received a response yet. Crow doesn't taste very good , lol. As always thank you all for your responses and input on this it has definitely been a great lesson.

 

[Package4]

@Package4 and @Si Klegg I emailed pictures to Dave Taylor and he shares your opinion on these shoes. I have requested a return explaining the situation to the seller but I have not received a response yet. Crow doesn't taste very good , lol. As always thank you all for your responses and input on this it has definitely been a great lesson.
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This is how most of us have learned, Dave is a great resource and until I became comfortable, I wore out my welcome calling and emailing him, but I also bought quite a bit from him as well. Now that my interests have turned to Southern cloth, I don't patronize his site as much as in the past.

Don't hesitate to utilize your contacts here to authenticate either.

 

[Billw12280]

This is how most of us have learned, Dave is a great resource and until I became comfortable, I wore out my welcome calling and emailing him, but I also bought quite a bit from him as well. Now that my interests have turned to Southern cloth, I don't patronize his site as much as in the past.

Don't hesitate to utilize your contacts here to authenticate either.

I agree, Dave has always been great and willing to help. I felt like I had a pretty good grasp on things and these checked off the boxes I knew to check. The leather did not feel new, they smelled old and musty, and the threads did not glow under black light. They had a very similar feel to the authentic minty shoes. I would have sworn these were the real deal which is frightening for people just starting out like me. This phrase is thrown out a lot but it seems appropriate again, caveat emptor!

 

[Si Klegg]

I agree, Dave has always been great and willing to help. I felt like I had a pretty good grasp on things and these checked off the boxes I knew to check. The leather did not feel new, they smelled old and musty, and the threads did not glow under black light. They had a very similar feel to the authentic minty shoes. I would have sworn these were the real deal which is frightening for people just starting out like me. This phrase is thrown out a lot but it seems appropriate again, caveat emptor!

We don't have crow here Bill (what is it with you Colonials that you eat everything that flies, walks and crawls ). We only eat 'umble pie guv'nor.

This has been an excellent thread, learned more about Brogans in a week than I did in 25 years of re-enacting! I'm sorry you got caught mate, I hope you get a resolution, and look on the bright side, the good Karma gained here means you're going to get an absolute bargain in the future

 

[Billw12280]

We don't have crow here Bill (what is it with you Colonials that you eat everything that flies, walks and crawls ). We only eat 'umble pie guv'nor.

This has been an excellent thread, learned more about Brogans in a week than I did in 25 years of re-enacting! I'm sorry you got caught mate, I hope you get a resolution, and look on the bright side, the good Karma gained here means you're going to get an absolute bargain in the future

You forgot things that swim, slither, and hop. I've never tried 'umble pie sounds like it would leave a bad taste in your mouth.

This certainly has been a great educational experience. The seller is giving some problems but we are talking back and forth. He is stating he never claimed them to be Civil War brogans which, after reviewing the auction is correct he listed them as Original Leather Brogan Boots under the category Indian Wars 1866-1897.

From the auction:
EXTREMELY RARE BROGAN BOOTS. FROM CIVIL WAR OFFICER'S ORIGINAL PERSONAL EFFECTS. THESE WERE OBTAINED FROM THE ESTATE LOCATED IN DAUPHIN COUNTY PA SEVERAL DECADES AGO, ALONG WITH AN ORIGNAL PAIR OF OFFICER KNEE HIGH LEATHER CAVALRY BOOTS WHICH WERE SOLD YEARS AGO. PONCHO MADE FROM RUBBER AND SEVERAL OFFICER HATS, MANY BOOKS ETC..SOLES AND HEELS ARE HARDENED LEATHER AND HAVE METAL NAILS ATTACHING SOLES. LENGTH ARE 10 INCHES.

My fault for not checking more thoroughly. Anyway as I stated before he attributed them to George W.P. Freeland who we saw only served from September, 1862 to April, 1863. I believe he is implying these were his civilian shoes after the war ended.

Anyway, I have gotten great deals on other stuff and some not so great deals, I always use the not so great deals as a learning experience so I feel like I always gain something valuable out of them.

 

[Private Smith]

I own three pair of original brogans, no question as to their age, just looking at them, leather extremely stiff, soles held on by wooden pegs. 2 pair are typical federal issue brogans ,the third pair looks to be a confederate low quarter brogan identical to the pair reportedly found at devils den pictured in Gettysburg Battlefield Relics and Souveniers. Looks like the third pair might have been dug. I stumbled upon these and could not resist them, very good price, from a very old collector who paid probably next to nothing for them, and still made a great profit even at the low price, but yes they are very very rare, other than these three pair I got lucky with, I have not seen many at all for sale over the course of many years. If you see them buy them, they make a great uniform and accoutrement display.

 

[Billw12280]

I own three pair of original brogans, no question as to their age, just looking at them, leather extremely stiff, soles held on by wooden pegs. 2 pair are typical federal issue brogans ,the third pair looks to be a confederate low quarter brogan identical to the pair reportedly found at devils den pictured in Gettysburg Battlefield Relics and Souveniers. Looks like the third pair might have been dug. I stumbled upon these and could not resist them, very good price, from a very old collector who paid probably next to nothing for them, and still made a great profit even at the low price, but yes they are very very rare, other than these three pair I got lucky with, I have not seen many at all for sale over the course of many years. If you see them buy them, they make a great uniform and accoutrement display.

@Private Smith I'm sorry, I forgot to welcome you to the forum so welcome from central Ohio! This is a great learning resource with a lot of excellent people willing to help. If you ever get a chance I'm sure we would all love to see pictures of the brogans you have in you collection.

 

[Billw12280]

Instead of creating a new thread I thought I would just continue this one. I just won a pair of brogans at online auction that were described as "Civil War Era Saxon Military Issued Boots". I have not received them yet but I'm pretty sure they are not Civil War Era. I was pretty confident of this prior to bidding on them so I am ok with it and I think I got a heck of a deal on them. What I believe these are is a pair of M 1882/85 pattern campaign shoes which, from my research, are about as rare of a US issue shoe as you can find. I wanted to get the opinion of the experts here though. I don't believe Civil War brogan eyelets were reinforced, nor do I believe they had lace hooks. The reinforcing rivets at the side seams also appear to be japanned and not the appropriate style for a Civil War shoe. The vamp and construction do have a ACW style though. They have certain attributes that are similar to my minty pair pictured earlier in this thread. What are your thoughts? I'll post more pictures once I receive the shoes.

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/67643530_civil-war-era-saxon-military-issued-boots

 

[Package4]

Instead of creating a new thread I thought I would just continue this one. I just won a pair of brogans at online auction that were described as "Civil War Era Saxon Military Issued Boots". I have not received them yet but I'm pretty sure they are not Civil War Era. I was pretty confident of this prior to bidding on them so I am ok with it and I think I got a heck of a deal on them. What I believe these are is a pair of M 1882/85 pattern campaign shoes which, from my research, are about as rare of a US issue shoe as you can find. I wanted to get the opinion of the experts here though. I don't believe Civil War brogan eyelets were reinforced, nor do I believe they had lace hooks. The reinforcing rivets at the side seams also appear to be japanned and not the appropriate style for a Civil War shoe. The vamp and construction do have a ACW style though. They have certain attributes that are similar to my minty pair pictured earlier in this thread. What are your thoughts? I'll post more pictures once I receive the shoes.

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/67643530_civil-war-era-saxon-military-issued-boots

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You are correct, these are way post war, I have seen these offered before as ACW vintage in a couple of different online venues. These most likely are an English import, the "custom veal calf tiles" refers to the covering or top leather and was an English term (to tile meant to cover). Very nice late 19th century footwear though!

 

[byron ed]

Can someone address the reenactorism: "jes' like civilian shoes, government bootees were issued with straight lasts. Ya know ya dunked 'em in water and wore 'em into lefts or rights til they dried, heh heh." -- So many folks are given that story, even by living historians and museum staff who (I suppose) value the showmanship of it.

When I finally looked into it I found that in some fairly rare specific circumstances there were booties issued in straight last in quickie / shoddy mode, but those emergency / shyster shoes weren't meeting the government contract pattern, which was right and left last -- the same as most civilian shoes by that time (for which there was no requirement so there were some unlasted civilian shoes).

But my research wasn't extensive, others here may have more on it.

 

[Billw12280]

You are correct, these are way post war, I have seen these offered before as ACW vintage in a couple of different online venues. These most likely are an English import, the "custom veal calf tiles" refers to the covering or top leather and was an English term (to tile meant to cover). Very nice late 19th century footwear though!

Thanks as always @Package4! It looks like there are only 4 letters in the last word so I read that as "Custom Veal Calf Ties". I assumed that referred to the laces, that are long gone.

 

[Billw12280]

Can someone address the reenactorism: "jes' like civilian shoes, government bootees were issued with straight lasts. Ya know ya dunked 'em in water and wore 'em into lefts or rights til they dried". So many folks are given that story, even by living historians and museum staff who apparently value showmanship more than authenticity.

When I finally looked into it I found that in some fairly rare specific circumstances there were booties issued in straight last in quickie / shoddy mode, but those emergency / shyster shoes weren't meeting the government contract pattern , which was right and left last -- the same as most civilian shoes by that time (for which there was no requirement so there were some unlasted civilian shoes).

But my research wasn't extensive, others here may have more on it.

From what I've read straight lasts were cheaper, and obviously, easier to produce. The majority of the later shoes, I would guess, were probably straight last since they were needed in a hurry. Much like the pegged vs stitched soles the government didn't like them but the need for footwear made it necessary to accept less than adequate equipment.

 

[byron ed]

The majority of the later shoes, I would guess, were probably straight last

One thing at least that I was able to determine, that right/left-lasted shoes, per the official pattern, were by far the majority of U.S. booties issued over the term of the war. There's no additional steps for making a straight vs a left/right last anyway.

 

[Billw12280]

I just received the new pair of brogans and, as promised, I am posting pictures for those that are interested in seeing them. I have tried to find information on the manufacturer with no success. Any guidance would be appreciated.