Captain William C. Quantrill, CSA

[Patrick H]

Regarding the Anderson death photos, I believe they were sort of a visual record, but also to display his body as a sort of trophy. A guerrilla named Stuart was killed in south Howard County roughly the same time, his corpse was brought to Boonville and similarly photographed. They didn't even wipe the blood off Stuart's face (not that I am outraged by that, or anything of the kind). My point is simply that the captors/killers saw no particular reason to respect the body of a hated person. Most people were glad to be rid of these two guys by the time they died.

Regarding Quantrill's pre-war criminal charges, I am still looking into that. A few pages ago, I promised to look into that. I just haven't had much time to research it today, but I will report back.

 

[leftyhunter]

They made a big deal about photographing John dillinger body when he was killed, so in 75yrs. it didn't change all that much

Folks then just had a more fun filled sense of justice. Them's where the good old days!
Leftyhunter

 

[Northern Light]

Folks then just had a more fun filled sense of justice. Them's where the good old days!
Leftyhunter

I'm going to believe that this remark is meant to be facetious.

 

[ole]

I'm going to believe that this remark is meant to be facetious.

Northern Light, it was the way it was. There wasn't a lot of fun to be had in those days, so hangings and displaying bodies partially filled the gaps. Along with burgoo festivals and other such diversions. Sunday socials if you weren't too remote.

I suspect it wasn't all that much different in rural Canada.

 

[Northern Light]

Northern Light, it was the way it was. There wasn't a lot of fun to be had in those days, so hangings and displaying bodies partially filled the gaps. Along with burgoo festivals and other such diversions. Sunday socials if you weren't too remote.

I suspect it wasn't all that much different in rural Canada.

I'm sure it was not, except with the sectionalism caused by the rift between North and South. Our sectionalism was between the French and English Canadians, and did not, generally speaking, involve physical violence, more political squabbles.
One incident in Ontario was the community plotted murder of the dreaded "Black Donnelly" family, a passle of rapacious Irish settlers, who terrorized their community.www.canadianmysteries.ca/sites/donnellys/home/indexen.html

Burgoo is a type of stew is it not? I'll have to investigate on the Food Forum.
Some of our festivals included giant cheeses.
http://www.museevirtuel-virtualmuse...s/pm_v2.php?id=exhibit_home&lg=English&ex=354

 

[ole]

I'm sure it was not, except with the sectionalism caused by the rift between North and South. Our sectionalism was between the French and English Canadians, and did not, generally speaking, involve physical violence, more political squabbles.
One incident in Ontario was the community plotted murder of the dreaded "Black Donnelly" family, a passle of rapacious Irish settlers, who terrorized their community.www.canadianmysteries.ca/sites/donnellys/home/indexen.html

Burgoo is a type of stew is it not? I'll have to investigate on the Food Forum.
Some of our festivals included giant cheeses.
http://www.museevirtuel-virtualmuse...s/pm_v2.php?id=exhibit_home&lg=English&ex=354

You takes your entertainment where you can find it or create it.

I have to relate it my upbringing, in part.

We didn't have much time for recreation on the farm, but my parents made an effort to expose us to some. Contrast that to the kids of a family I went to grade school with. They had never been in town. When they were cast into school, grade and high, they had had no exposure to anything beyond school. They were not retarded -- just inexperienced. They didn't know what to expect or how to behave.

There were seven of them and seven of us. Last time I heard, there was one left. We are still seven.

And yes, Burgoo is an odd midwestern US dish with no consistent ingredients. It was an excuse to get together and party. Same with major events like hangings or going to town and viewing a body or of shopping, having an ice cream or viewing such marvels as watching the donut machine at the Skaggs.

A rather pedantic explanation of why bodies were displayed -- it was something to do.

 

[leftyhunter]

I'm going to believe that this remark is meant to be facetious.

Yes and no. The administration of justice during the CW not to mention before and after was less then perfect to put it mildly. On the other hand from time to time the bad guys got what was coming to them vs today where everything is all turned around but I can't talk about modern issues.
Leftyhunter

 

[diane]

Can't help but think of Champ Ferguson's idea of justice - he was pretty close to being Anderson without the extremes, but he thought it perfectly fine to kill someone he thought might be thinking of killing him! To his odd mind, that was simply self-defense and he was genuinely baffled to find it was considered murder.

 

[18thVirginia]

18th, that's the way they are usually judged today. That's what always used to believe, too--because I read and was influenced by all the things that we've all read and heard. In fact, they were being judged as common criminals by the union army very early in the war. There were numerous orders written for them to be summarily executed upon capture. That, in itself, is a pretty good reason not to surrender. But, just remember that all of these judgements were made by their enemies and after the war the victors got to write the history. Of course, there were some apologists like John Newman Edwards. But there wasn't a lot of objective reporting done for a very long time. Even William Connelly (who is not friendly to Quantrill in his writings) saw that some of these boys were good, brave soldiers. Connelly actually interviewed many of the guerrillas after the war. The Missouri guerrillas really shouldn't all be judged alike, because they weren't alike. I think Anderson became psycho (if he wasn't previously) when his sister died. He might have been all along. Jesse James became a very bad man--cleverly bad. With John Edwards's help, he spun a legend around himself during his post war criminal career. Frank James was as tough a soldier as there was in Quantrill's company, but was not a wanton murderer. He is known to have spared a number of enemy soldiers--particularly fellow Freemasons. He grew tired of his post war outlaw career and surrendered to the governor of Missouri. He lived a quiet, peaceful life ever afterwards, and was well respected by many--and seen as a sort of curiosity by others. And, as I've said earlier in the thread, Quantrill seems to me to have had a dual personality.
He is still considered a great Missouri hero by many, and he is still considered a vicious murderer by many. He probably deserves both judgements.

I've read some of the Border Ruffian posts where he mentioned that many of those who've written about the War in Missouri are biased on one side or the other, so it's difficult to make determinations about many of the people from the era. My high school history teacher was a Civil War buff and a native Kansan, but the first thing he read to a class of Kansas kids was an ACW contemporary account of what scoundrels many of the Jayhawker troops were, to try and get us to be more objective in looking at events in the past. (I'd only moved to Kansas, so I didn't yet know about the whole Border War thing).

When I said these were gangs of criminals earlier, I was thinking of Anderson, Quantrill and their close associates, not the ordinary Missouran who got caught up in the pattern of taking retribution that became the War in Missouri and Kansas. According to those who've studied the subject, my great grandmother aided the bushwhackers, was jailed temporarily, and when she had married and settled in Texas with a family, had Jesse James at the house for lunch. But she was mostly a woman who was a hard working, respectable citizen for the rest of her life. So my personal bias would be to assume that some of the other guerrillas went back to being regular farmers. In fact, I'd think that if you compared the records of early settlers in Sherman/Denison, Texas with lists of those who rode with Quantrill/Anderson/Todd, you'd likely find considerable overlap.

As I've stated, my personal willingness to label Anderson and Quantrill as genuine bad guys probably comes more from my experience in dealing with juvenile delinquents and criminals. And from seeing that there's usually a history of bad acts before they get the attention of the public by some horrific murder or spree killings. Connelley seems to think that Quantrill had a long history of antisocial behavior before he became a noted guerrilla leader. He even suggests that Quantrill made up huge stories about his early years, which were then repeated by Jesse and Frank James because they hadn't known him earlier. That sounds correct to me--just as it seems normal that others went back to their lives of farming, blacksmithing, etc.

One thing about the historians of this conflict, however, is that those from the Union side are for once probably just as vehement as the Confederate proponents. Many Civil War veterans from the East settled in Kansas after the War, so many that it became known as "the Soldier State." My husband's GGF's were both veterans who filed their soldier's claims in Kansas and stayed. I think that gave a greater emphasis on the Border War and the War in Missouri than you might find in other areas.

 

[Patrick H]

I am not coming up with anything concrete about Quantrill's pre-war criminal actions. Samuel Anderson Pence references some Quantrill letters in the collection of the Kansas Historical Society which he says indicated that Quantrill was probably involved in some crimes of a "serious" nature. Richard Brownlee says that Quantrill was suspected of horse theft and that charges were brought against him, but later dropped. Brownlee references William Elsey Connelley for this information. Unfortunately, I have returned a borrowed volume of QUANTRILL AND THE BORDER WARS (by Connelley) to its owner and haven't yet obtained my own copy. Those of you who have that book can probably fill us all in on the charge that was subsequently dropped...and perhaps why it was dropped. T. J. Stiles just mentions Quantrill's past in the most general way. In his commentary for THREE YEARS WITH QUANTRILL, Herman Hattaway says that Quantrill was involved in thievery and perhaps murder, but he gives no details. In CIVIL WAR ON THE MISSOURI-KANSAS BORDER, Donald L. Gilmore dismisses most of what Connelley wrote of Quantrill's early life. However, Gilmore states that Quantrill was involved in some very serious crimes, including conspiracy to murder a free black barber and horse theft. He says the Douglas County Court found indictments for his arrest for theft of horses and cattle, burglary, kidnapping, and arson. He doesn't say what charges were dropped (see Brownlee, above). In fact, he says Quantrill skipped town (Lawrence). Sorry I can't come up with something firmer.

 

[diane]

I am not coming up with anything concrete about Quantrill's pre-war criminal actions. Samuel Anderson Pence references some Quantrill letters in the collection of the Kansas Historical Society which he says indicated that Quantrill was probably involved in some crimes of a "serious" nature. Richard Brownlee says that Quantrill was suspected of horse theft and that charges were brought against him, but later dropped. Brownlee references William Elsey Connelley for this information. Unfortunately, I have returned a borrowed volume of QUANTRILL AND THE BORDER WARS (by Connelley) to its owner and haven't yet obtained my own copy. Those of you who have that book can probably fill us all in on the charge that was subsequently dropped...and perhaps why it was dropped. T. J. Stiles just mentions Quantrill's past in the most general way. In his commentary for THREE YEARS WITH QUANTRILL, Herman Hattaway says that Quantrill was involved in thievery and perhaps murder, but he gives no details. In CIVIL WAR ON THE MISSOURI-KANSAS BORDER, Donald L. Gilmore dismisses most of what Connelley wrote of Quantrill's early life. However, Gilmore states that Quantrill was involved in some very serious crimes, including conspiracy to murder a free black barber and horse theft. He says the Douglas County Court found indictments for his arrest for theft of horses and cattle, burglary, kidnapping, and arson. He doesn't say what charges were dropped (see Brownlee, above). In fact, he says Quantrill skipped town (Lawrence). Sorry I can't come up with something firmer.

Thanks so much for your work! That's a lot of very good stuff. I'd read that Anderson had gotten Quantrill arrested for the murder of one of his (Anderson's) men and that led to their final and permanent parting of the ways. I don't remember the circumstances of the problem, or even if anyone was killed, but I did find Quantrill was briefly arrested for something by McCullough. (sp?) Perhaps it was harking back to some of those charges you mention?

 

[Patrick H]

Thanks so much for your work! That's a lot of very good stuff. I'd read that Anderson had gotten Quantrill arrested for the murder of one of his (Anderson's) men and that led to their final and permanent parting of the ways. I don't remember the circumstances of the problem, or even if anyone was killed, but I did find Quantrill was briefly arrested for something by McCullough. (sp?) Perhaps it was harking back to some of those charges you mention?

Hi, Diane,
I think General McCulloch did not see any value whatsoever in using guerrilla soldiers and wanted nothing to do with them. Well, that's just the way he was wired up and I don't think we can blame him for that. Gen. Price, on the other hand, saw a definite value in utilizing the guerrillas (sometimes to the dismay of others in the Confederacy). And I came across something the other night that indicated Quantrill's men briefly served under the command of then-Colonel JO Shelby for a brief time. That would have ultimately put them under Price's command for however long the assignment lasted. I am fairly certain that while they were with Shelby, they did NOT rock his boat. But I don't think that assignment lasted more than a few weeks.

These guys are so controversial, it is difficult to sort things out about them!
Patrick

 

[Lee]

The motive for such collection was quite different, as you note. One of my several greats uncles wore a necklace of fingers. They were specifically bow fingers - he kept them so that his enemies couldn't shoot him in the afterlife. Bill Anderson's culture didn't follow that belief, however, so that's why I called his collections an alien chilliness. It meant something very different to him than it did to my ancestor.

In the same vein, was Jack Hinson unbalanced? He was a very successful Confederate partisan - one man war! I'd say he was. But he never collected anything, not even notches on his really modified gun, nor did he gather around him other more or less damaged people. He operated in Tennessee and at that time the war there wasn't very civilized at all, but he did put down his gun when the war ended and literally disappeared. (Well, he was there but nobody said anything about it.)

We don't know if Anderson would have stopped, too, because he was killed during the war, but considering many of his colleagues continued into colorful if often brief careers after the war ended, it's likely he would have as well. His alignment with the Confederacy was not so much a belief in that ideal but more a reason to justify disposing of those he held responsible for personal miseries - which seemed to be everybody.

Diane I hold you in the very highest regard but I am pretty sure Jack Hinson did put notches on his long range heavy rifle.

 

[Poor Private]

Having one side of my family being from Missouri, and still living down there(for generations). You have to be from there to understand them- you harm one you harm them all (all all come running). My family is from the hills area, and lots of stories are told about helping and aiding the James, Quantril, Anderson, Coles and Youngers, and a bunch of the less notoroius guerillas. Everyone thinks that the Hills of Tenn. and Kentucky are bad, you don't know Missouri.

 

[diane]

Diane I hold you in the very highest regard but I am pretty sure Jack Hinson did put notches on his long range heavy rifle.

Yes, you're right! He did indeed notch it. Thanks! I think, though, not all his kills are represented. Maybe he ran out of room? He gave that rifle to Forrest who quickly handed it to his aide Anderson. That rifle was the last thing Forrest needed to be caught with!

 

[Lee]

Yes, you're right! He did indeed notch it. Thanks! I think, though, not all his kills are represented. Maybe he ran out of room? He gave that rifle to Forrest who quickly handed it to his aide Anderson. That rifle was the last thing Forrest needed to be caught with!

True post war that would not be a good item to be found in the General's possession during reconstruction and his battles with Brownlow I think his name was. My less than perfect memory tells me the book said Hinson had one set of notches for the Federals that murdered and mutilated his sons and another set for legitimate uniformed Federal cavalry, soldiers and the sailors who were mostly officers he shot from his hide inside a cave on a cliff face overlooking the river and yet another set of notches for Federal or Confederate when convenient guerillas or ruffians who would steal, burn, and murder from whoever as long as they had something they wanted or needed. The author admitted Hinson's total kills were likely more than the many notches on his rifle. Hinson was a man who lost plenty to the war including his family members and property but he didn't let it destroy him. Hinson got even or as even as he could get with his rifle and being a dedicated Confederate Partisan because although he had sons who were legitimate Confederate soldiers Jack Hinson never was.

 

[Buckeye Bill]

One of my favorite movies is Ride With the Devil

http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=ipad&p=ride with the devil

I just watched the movie "Ride With The Devil." I was very impressed with this movie that involves the Kansas-Missouri border conflicts during the American Civil War. So many twists and turns throughout this era. I recommend this flick.....

Was Quantrill a hero or a villain? Were the Jayhawkers/Redlegs heroes or villans? It all depends on your perception and environment.

Bill

 

[rickvox79]

I just watched the movie "Ride With The Devil." I was very impressed with this movie that involves the Kansas-Missouri border conflicts during the American Civil War. So many twists and turns throughout this era. I recommend this flick.....

Was Quantrill a hero or a villain? Were the Jayhawkers/Redlegs heroes or villans? It all depends on your perception and environment.

Bill

 

[Patrick H]

I just watched the movie "Ride With The Devil." I was very impressed with this movie that involves the Kansas-Missouri border conflicts during the American Civil War. So many twists and turns throughout this era. I recommend this flick.....

Was Quantrill a hero or a villain? Were the Jayhawkers/Redlegs heroes or villans? It all depends on your perception and environment.

Bill

Hey, Bill,
If this is your first time seeing the movie, then I'm glad you got to see it. A lot of it rang very true for me. First of all, a lot of it was shot in Missouri, very near where some of the events really happened. In that regard, it was so much more real to me than THE OUTLAW JOSEY WALES, which I also liked a lot. (But, let's face it, Josey's locations don't look much at all like Missouri.) I also appreciated the fact that so many of the main characters were loosely based on real historic figures--Black John representing Anderson, Daniel Holt representing John Noland, and quite a few others. There's even a brief scene during the Lawrence sequence showing a kid with two holstered revolvers walking away from the camera down the middle of the street--perhaps representing Riley Crawford. Parts of Pattonsburg, Missouri which were heavily damaged by the great midwestern floods of 1993 served as the business district of Lawrence for the raid scenes. Other scenes were shot near Lexington, MO. I could have done without the love story, but I guess you can't have much of a successful movie without a love story. I could also have done without the expository dialog at the very first, during the wedding party. But I guess that helped set the context for viewers who weren't previously informed about Missouri politics, circa 1856-61. In any event, I think my favorite scene is during the retreat from Lawrence, where the boys dismount and form a line just inside the woods to shoot into the pursuing Federal cavalry.
William Gregg led the rear guard on most or all of Quantrill's retreat from Lawrence, and repeatedly skirmished and stalled the pursuing cavalry. He obviously led the rear guard actions effectively, but I doubt he ever threw out a wall of pistol bullets in quite that spectacular fashion. I am pretty sure he did his job with a relatively small complement of men. Nevertheless, it was a heck of a scene! And, finally, there is an effective scene in a pocket of woods where the boys ambush a Federal patrol. The boys melt in and out of the woods repeatedly, and I think Ang Lee (the director) got that part of Missouri guerrilla fighting just right--he showed the viewers more or less what it must have been like to be on foot with riders materializing out of nowhere and then disappearing into the brush almost immediately. All in all, a fine movie--and, for the most part, pretty accurate, too.

 

[Buckeye Bill]

Hey, Bill,
If this is your first time seeing the movie, then I'm glad you got to see it. A lot of it rang very true for me. First of all, a lot of it was shot in Missouri, very near where some of the events really happened. In that regard, it was so much more real to me than THE OUTLAW JOSEY WALES, which I also liked a lot. (But, let's face it, Josey's locations don't look much at all like Missouri.) I also appreciated the fact that so many of the main characters were loosely based on real historic figures--Black John representing Anderson, Daniel Holt representing John Noland, and quite a few others. There's even a brief scene during the Lawrence sequence showing a kid with two holstered revolvers walking away from the camera down the middle of the street--perhaps representing Riley Crawford. Parts of Pattonsburg, Missouri which were heavily damaged by the great midwestern floods of 1993 served as the business district of Lawrence for the raid scenes. Other scenes were shot near Lexington, MO. I could have done without the love story, but I guess you can't have much of a successful movie without a love story. I could also have done without the expository dialog at the very first, during the wedding party. But I guess that helped set the context for viewers who weren't previously informed about Missouri politics, circa 1856-61. In any event, I think my favorite scene is during the retreat from Lawrence, where the boys dismount and form a line just inside the woods to shoot into the pursuing Federal cavalry.
William Gregg led the rear guard on most or all of Quantrill's retreat from Lawrence, and repeatedly skirmished and stalled the pursuing cavalry. He obviously led the rear guard actions effectively, but I doubt he ever threw out a wall of pistol bullets in quite that spectacular fashion. I am pretty sure he did his job with a relatively small complement of men. Nevertheless, it was a heck of a scene! And, finally, there is an effective scene in a pocket of woods where the boys ambush a Federal patrol. The boys melt in and out of the woods repeatedly, and I think Ang Lee (the director) got that part of Missouri guerrilla fighting just right--he showed the viewers more or less what it must have been like to be on foot with riders materializing out of nowhere and then disappearing into the brush almost immediately. All in all, a fine movie--and, for the most part, pretty accurate, too.

My very first time watching this flick, Pat. I really enjoyed the plot, the actors and the conflict scenes. The Kansas-Missouri border conflicts were absolutely brutal!

Bill